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Author Topic: Class Warfare: Internal politics, scaling difficulty, and personalities  (Read 40168 times)

FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2010, 12:22:02 pm »

I was thinking you might work Art into this. Happy dwarves would be more inspired... you'd get a higher chance of artifacts that way. Or maybe do a little of what I said- have the quality of art be influenced by the mood. That would be good if Toady brings in some of the magic stuffs he mentioned... pissed off dwarves make artifacts that are more likely to unleash zombies.

Or maybe give them some more autonomous actions, and some "free" time. Neutral dwarves will spend their free time at the zoo or statue garden, doing nothing. Unhappy dwarves might start smaller fights (have some notion of a little brawl, as opposed to something that results in flying limbs), or go around ranting at people and pissing them off. Happy dwarves might work on their free time (with a skill bonus, leading to higher quality goods), seek out an unhappy person and cheer them up, play music in the great hall, clean a section of the fort, fix things that need to be repaired, study random skills, or produce some independent artwork.

I keep coming back to Art now... it would be cool if it reflected more. Like, the current mood of your fortress, as well as the dwarf doing the work, maybe with links to other dwarves... art types would hang out together, make friends, imitate one another... maybe have Art be a skill in itself, that can only be trained during free time.
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

nuker w

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2010, 12:38:37 pm »

I really, really like this. Alot. If I hadint used my votes, i'd put it into this. With guilds on the dev list, you never know, this stuff may be taken into consideration.
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FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2010, 12:40:44 pm »

I like the idea, but...
This is going to take *so* much playtesting to get it anywhere near to balanced and bug-free. Dwarves go batshit at the drop of a hat as is, with a system orders of magnitude simpler than what you're proposing. I wouldn't look to see this until much more of the game is in the RAWs, so that modders can work out the kinks...
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

nuker w

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2010, 12:43:46 pm »

And you thought tantrum spirals were bad...

ALL NEW RIOT SPIRALS! Coming to a fort near you.
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Daetrin

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2010, 02:00:33 pm »

I really like this, and it seems to me that social stratification introduces the capacity for class-specific workshops. For example, your uber-elite could perform plays or similar at a "workshop" you'd make a room from. Have it act like a short party.  Your elite armorers might get a forge that has better tools so you can inherently decorate or color the output and so on.   
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2010, 02:47:19 pm »

Well, I went into it during the "Pimp My Fort" thread, but...

Currently, nobles are "do nothing" dwarves because they are exempt from "menial labor".  As part of a design of social classes, and generating hobby-type jobs, or even just plain high-class enough jobs that nobles would deign perform them.

For example, if one of the medical positions is considered highly prestigious, and a noble is interested in something related to medicine, they might work as a doctor.  Alternately, the "hobby-jobs" like being a poet or artist might interest them.

You could think of it as being similar to games like Ceaser or City Life, where you need to have people from certain social classes to fill certain jobs.  To help keep the peace, you need some (lower-class) cops, but also some (higher-class) judges to run the courts.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
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marcusbjol

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2010, 03:34:10 pm »

Huge ideas.  Very modern thought.  This is not a modern game.

I am not sure a class structure, beyond what it is, will be easy to define.

Social mobility did not exist in the middle ages.  Once a peasant, always a peasant.  There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.  I think this had something to do with Plato (one should know the place god gave him and be happy there) and defending the social structure (if a peasant can become a noble, couldn't that mean a noble become a king?).

In the persuit of happiness it is mentioned that the lower classes would riot.  I would bet that England viewed the American Revolution as a riot, but that was lead by the upper classes.  Socialization, by in large in the medieval age, was done on occasion, but work, as it is today, is more in demand.  Today's socialization is met for most by working and family meals.  Most people do not go out in a social fashion more than twice a week.

Couldnt clans just be as simple as preassigned relationships?  Maybe there should be more than aquantance, friend, lover.  That could be the ciqueish behavior sought after.  The help friends behavior is already coded

Property - Yes it would be awesome to have a room defined in someway besides an item in that room.  Yes, the dwarf should be albe to buy furnature, clothes, etc.  Changing it to zone designations might work.

Remember when making these suggestions:  Toady already has 20 years of coding ahead of him.  His previous posts have indicated he is not looking to share the workload.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2010, 04:10:15 pm »

Huge ideas.  Very modern thought.  This is not a modern game.

I am not sure a class structure, beyond what it is, will be easy to define.

Social mobility did not exist in the middle ages.  Once a peasant, always a peasant.  There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.  I think this had something to do with Plato (one should know the place god gave him and be happy there) and defending the social structure (if a peasant can become a noble, couldn't that mean a noble become a king?).

In the persuit of happiness it is mentioned that the lower classes would riot.  I would bet that England viewed the American Revolution as a riot, but that was lead by the upper classes.  Socialization, by in large in the medieval age, was done on occasion, but work, as it is today, is more in demand.  Today's socialization is met for most by working and family meals.  Most people do not go out in a social fashion more than twice a week.

Couldnt clans just be as simple as preassigned relationships?  Maybe there should be more than aquantance, friend, lover.  That could be the ciqueish behavior sought after.  The help friends behavior is already coded

Property - Yes it would be awesome to have a room defined in someway besides an item in that room.  Yes, the dwarf should be albe to buy furnature, clothes, etc.  Changing it to zone designations might work.

Remember when making these suggestions:  Toady already has 20 years of coding ahead of him.  His previous posts have indicated he is not looking to share the workload.

So we should never suggest anything again, so that we don't accidentally give Toady an idea that he likes, which he might then have to impliment?  Maybe you misunderstand the nature of a "Suggestions Forum"? 

Yes, this is a big change, because this game needs a big change in this area for players to have the freedom to perform the actions they want to perform.  This game would be severely crippled if it was merely a place for dwarves to train between seiges, before quickly sluaghtering the seigers, then going back to training. 

As for "society is too technologically advanced for this time frame", tell me when the notion of goblins kidnapping people of other cultures, and seeing which ones rose to the top was part of the historical timeline, or the elven hippy culture, for that matter.

There is nothing technological stopping such societies from forming, and further, while only a very small percentage of the population did live in cities, cities did attract what could be called a middle class of tradesmen and merchants.  Until we get the adventurer mode update where we get large zones of rural agrarian people, DF is almost totally focused upon cities.

I proposed the system as it is because it fulfills the purpose that is needed to be fulfilled - giving players a reason to avoid letting their dwarves live a purely hand-to-mouth existence.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2010, 04:20:58 pm »

I'm trying to think of what changes this would make, in terms of what the play could really *see*. A lot of it looks like... deep current stuff. It's going on, it's influencing your play, but all you see is ripples until you fire the wrong person and a few seconds later, blood  shoots up out of your fortress entrance like a geyser.

So... sell me on this one. What really cool, fun to play with stuff would we see? How would your fortress design change to match it?
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2010, 04:59:43 pm »

I'm trying to think of what changes this would make, in terms of what the play could really *see*. A lot of it looks like... deep current stuff. It's going on, it's influencing your play, but all you see is ripples until you fire the wrong person and a few seconds later, blood  shoots up out of your fortress entrance like a geyser.

So... sell me on this one. What really cool, fun to play with stuff would we see? How would your fortress design change to match it?

Like I said before, I considered it a "redefinition of scope" of the previous suggestion, whose first post is spoilered in the second post of this thread. 

In many of the suggestions that people have been having regarding general "quality of life" mods or mods that would require giving dwarves more goods or more care or attention, the argument is always "That's completely pointless, I don't care about my dwarves now, why should I care about dwarves with more complex amenities, when all I need is a legendary dining hall?"

In threads like the "More Reasonable Food System", this was likewise a major part of the problem.

Essentially, this suggestion is meant to turn the game into having a system for dwarves to start requiring or giving additional benefits for having more complex social services and goods for sale. 

While I don't particularly like comparing DF to other games, I guess a metaphor is the best way to go... Games like Sierra's Citybuilder series (Pharaoh, Emperor, Ceaser) give good examples of having escalating requirements for more sophisticated populations in more densely inhabited cities.  In Pharaoh, you could only have a few scattered nomads in tents unless you are willing to supply homes with access to water.  To upgrade homes further, you needed to supply people with food.  To hit the fourth level, you needed pottery and beer.  Then you needed access to religious services, courts, and least one other type of food.  The list goes on quite extensively, and the challenge of the game was in finding ways to pack all those services in efficiently, so that there was no drop in coverage (which could lead to housing suddenly devolving, which would lead to people leaving to find better housing, which would mean they weren't doing their jobs, which could mean services would no longer be fully staffed, potentially causing a chain reaction...)

What I'm selling is what I said at the very start of this thread: This game essentially only sells potential players two attractions: Combat, and construction.  If DF were made to have a much more complex social interaction system, then civil engineering could become a real third draw for players, who obviously want things like having taverns with fireplaces, or gardens, or more complex food systems with greater variety of food qualities (such as "Thirty Year Whiskey" and the "More Reasonable Food System"), or public arenas, or dwarven sports, or libraries or any of the hundred or so things that keep being suggested, but have little room in a game where the needs of dwarves are so utterly limited to "food, booze, and decorations".
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Deteramot

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2010, 05:06:40 pm »

I really like this idea. The current Dwarf Society is overly simplified, and a proper society is, well, mind numbingly complex. Social motivation is the reason we have proper societies today, and what with Toady wanting to make a simulation and builder of fantasy worlds, we need fantastic societies. I'd like to see a merit based Caste system.

The problems come from the pre-economy system. In that case, there is no functional difference between a legendary miner and some peasant, except that the great guiding spirit may favor the miner over the peasant. The peasant has no real motivation to move up (which is why true communist countries tend to fail) and the miner has no real motivation to maintain his position because, well, he has everything he needs already. This is fixed when the economy comes along, because then the miner has to work in order to keep his position and the peasant can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The Patriotism facet should help keep the pre-economy problems from crushing your fortress, because a person who believes what he is doing is for the good of the country fortress is going to be more than happy to do it, even if he functionally gets nothing additional for it.

Post-economy, I think upper-class anti-patriots should also become lazy and complacent. If, for example, they are favored by the King and he says that they're exempt from taxes and they don't have to pay rent on their nice home, why would they bother working? It would also cause the lower classes to become less patriotic and eventually cause the class wars which were mentioned.

I fully support this idea.

+1 Support.
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I'm currently making a nice room for my legendary clerk. I always treat my legendaries with the greatest respect, giving them the best rooms and so on. Although the walls are mostly engraved with pictures of my miner starving to death after he fell down a well, so it's not too cheerful.

FreakyCheeseMan

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2010, 05:11:53 pm »

*Nods* I used to play Pharaoh a lot, and if there were a game I'd compare DF to, it would be that.

That explains... some of what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure if I made my question clear. The system you're proposing- what exactly do you see it adding to play? Give me specific examples- new things players would need to take into considerations, new things you would do in your fortress to adjust for such, new cool phenomena/events you think you'd see?
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What do you really need to turn Elves into Dwarves? Mutation could make them grow a beard; insanity effects could make them evil-minded, aggressive, tree-hating cave dwellers, and instant, full necrosis of their lower legs could make them short.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2010, 05:58:53 pm »

The problems come from the pre-economy system. In that case, there is no functional difference between a legendary miner and some peasant, except that the great guiding spirit may favor the miner over the peasant.

The problem is, (as FreakyCheeseMan said) this is a matter of finding a balance between making dwarves more autonomous, with deeper personalities (I really want personality traits to actually matter in dwarves, altering how they prioritize some behaviors, or in how they do certain things), and generally more like individuals that will take actions in their own best interests, and the God-like control over the lives of the quiverring sinners dwarves in the hands of an angry God player.

It would make sense if a dwarf assigned to nothing but drudgery hauling for all eternity would decide that he wants to make something of himself, and decides to go buy a stone out of the stockpiles, make a workshop, and start a career for himself as a craftsdwarf.  It would also, however, fundementally break player control over the fortress, and turn it into a game of herding cats.  (And players currently enjoy herding cats only as far as the nearest magma pipe.)

Post-economy, I think upper-class anti-patriots should also become lazy and complacent. If, for example, they are favored by the King and he says that they're exempt from taxes and they don't have to pay rent on their nice home, why would they bother working? It would also cause the lower classes to become less patriotic and eventually cause the class wars which were mentioned.

I would actually additionally like for legendaries and most nobles to actually have to start paying for things.  Legendaries might be simply paid more (heck, all dwarves might get a percentage "raise" for having exceptional skill), and nobles are essentially the beneficiaries of most of the tax money, but still have finite pool to spend. 

The nobles that supposedly are the government (the baron on up) might have as their money supply the bulk of taxes and the rent of the rooms (as the landowners, they are the ones renting the rooms out, right?), and technical ownership of the stockpiles, but in turn pay the salaries of all the dwarves for all their work. 
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2010, 06:28:52 pm »

*Nods* I used to play Pharaoh a lot, and if there were a game I'd compare DF to, it would be that.

That explains... some of what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure if I made my question clear. The system you're proposing- what exactly do you see it adding to play? Give me specific examples- new things players would need to take into considerations, new things you would do in your fortress to adjust for such, new cool phenomena/events you think you'd see?

Well, let's say you have a fairly simple fortress.  The lower-class dwarves would want at least some variety in food (not all plump helmets all the time or only ever meat, especially from just one animal), would want a dining hall that may have some nice decorations, and would want some simple entertainments.  For example, simple gambling entertainments can be provided by simply building a "dice table" out of a regular table in the dining hall along with some dice made of carved bone (simple craftsdwarf stuff), or a "card table" with some paper (or possibly just bark strip) cards (because paper is a common enough request to warrant an inclusion in "most common requests" on the wiki), or possibly even some variant on "cockroach racing" using some tamed creatures and a small track.

Higher-class dwarves would want plays and access to art rooms (with canvass and paint supplies requiring building) to paint as their muse directs, and art galleries to show their work.  Likewise, engravings can become frescos or murals, and music halls could be the destination of musicians that have perfected their craft at the dirty hallway-corner music stands, getting pennies from passerby, or the place for delusional nobles with no talent to make fools of themselves with their utter lack of talent, but insistance that they get on stage, anyway.  (Be sure to save your laughter at them for the parts you are supposed to laugh at, or the hammerer will be coming your way.)  They would demand very complex foods made of recepies that demand a half dozen ingredients plus spices or salt, and to be served in high-quality surroundings.  Heated bathhouses.  Fur carpets. Embroidered clothing dyed in multiple colors. Menageries with rare creatures or even enslaved enemies trapped in cages.  The dwarven equivalent of chariot races.  A "mechanical play" system that uses water and gears to have automated clockwork "actors" perform famous plays that display the mechanical sophsitication of your civ (based on real ancient mechanical plays). Working waterworks supplying running hot/cold water and a plumbing system.  60-z level statues built as a tribute to the badassery of their elven king! Anything Rome or Greece can do, dwarves can do better!

If we want to be even more complex, we can actually do what Pharaoh does, and actually involve a "neighborhood desirability" mechanic, where low-class dwarves "lower property value", and have to be kept swept clear of the high-class neighborhoods of your fortress.  Nobles would want to not just have beautiful and impressive rooms, but have beautiful rooms surrounded by beautiful (sculpted mushroom) gardens, or the royal throne room to show just how close they are to the seat of power.  (The same mechanic that Pharaoh uses can even be applied - like noise, nice things exude a cube of influence that makes neighborhoods nicer, and ugly things (like flophouses or magma smelters) exude cubes of undesirable influence.)

Doing that, we would eventually involve players carving out early, flophouse-style arrangments for their dwarves, having to building bigger, more complex and interdependant systems as the fortress moves further along, while the old dives become the homes of those left at the lower rungs of the social ladder, serving the higher rungs.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Kilo24

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Re: Class Warfare, and the Pursuit of Happiness (System Overhaul)
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2010, 11:16:34 pm »

I like the idea.  It's a lot of work, but something of this nature will be flat-out necessary for a competent social model for DF.

It would make sense if a dwarf assigned to nothing but drudgery hauling for all eternity would decide that he wants to make something of himself, and decides to go buy a stone out of the stockpiles, make a workshop, and start a career for himself as a craftsdwarf.  It would also, however, fundementally break player control over the fortress, and turn it into a game of herding cats.  (And players currently enjoy herding cats only as far as the nearest magma pipe.)
I think you could get a working system out of this.  Only let the dwarves choose their own activities if they otherwise would be idle (and give them a minor happiness boost for doing so.)  If an intelligent prioritization was managed, we might be able to get a fortress running automatically without any need for player intervention (something I'd love to have happen, since it would lessen what the player flat-out *needed* to do and also would make implementing automation of NPC sites and abandoned fortresses much easier.)  If there was an intelligent supply-and-demand economy model, the raising prices of scarce resources would influence dwarves who weren't apathetic about money into producing those scarce materials (like, say, a once-a-year check to switch careers, taking into account current skills.)
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