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Author Topic: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.  (Read 8355 times)

cephalo

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Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« on: July 26, 2010, 07:31:00 am »

When ever there is a fight on a ledge somewhere, it's always better to take a hit than step off into 'open space'. The better dodger you are, the lower your life span.
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tfaal

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 08:51:45 am »

Yeah, this has been the case since the release of the first 3d version. However, you can turn dodging off as an adventurer, so the skill has definite applications.
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.

cephalo

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 09:57:02 am »

Yeah, this has been the case since the release of the first 3d version. However, you can turn dodging off as an adventurer, so the skill has definite applications.

DF2010 is the first time I've seen it in dwarf mode, I don't think you can turn it off there. Sometimes its like lemmings.
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gtmattz

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 10:08:32 am »

Yeah, this has been the case since the release of the first 3d version. However, you can turn dodging off as an adventurer, so the skill has definite applications.

DF2010 is the first time I've seen it in dwarf mode

Well maybe you never noticed it, but dodging was definintely in previous 3d versions.   In fact, one of the primary dangers of  40d carp was not the actual fish attack, but your dwarves dodging into the water and drowning, that is what made carp especially deadly.
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Just try it! Its not like you die IRL if Urist McMiner falls into magma.

cephalo

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 10:24:47 am »

Yeah, this has been the case since the release of the first 3d version. However, you can turn dodging off as an adventurer, so the skill has definite applications.

DF2010 is the first time I've seen it in dwarf mode

Well maybe you never noticed it, but dodging was definintely in previous 3d versions.   In fact, one of the primary dangers of  40d carp was not the actual fish attack, but your dwarves dodging into the water and drowning, that is what made carp especially deadly.

How could I not notice this? All of a sudden I'm finding that I need to cement over the stagnant pools.

I know why! I used to rely on marksdwarves!
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

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Arkose

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 12:13:58 pm »

Maybe dwarves with high Dodging skills should have a better sense of when NOT to dodge. (Or at least know to try to dodge somewhere safe instead of any open, possibly unfloored, square.)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2010, 12:20:43 pm »

Maybe dwarves with high Dodging skills should have a better sense of when NOT to dodge. (Or at least know to try to dodge somewhere safe instead of any open, possibly unfloored, square.)

"OH NO! That carp is gulping at me menacingly, even though it cannot really threaten me from here on land!  I KNOW! I'll dodge into the water, where I'll be safe!"
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Threlicus

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 12:36:44 pm »

The majority of my combat casualties so far are not enemy action, but drowning due to dodging into water over my non-swimmers' heads (I don't make any effort to train swimming). I certainly don't mind if this happens as a consequence of an enemy attack -- pushing someone off a bridge ought to be a perfectly fine tactic -- but when the dwarves do it to themselves it bothers me.

Perhaps we could get something simple like, the difficulty of a dodge is inversely proportional to the number of 'safe' squares to move to, where 'safe' squares are ones that pathfinding would consider moving to; and then a successful dodge chooses randomly between those safe squares.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 12:52:48 pm »

It does raise the question of whether or not dwarves are trying to dodge into walls, and just bumping their heads and getting hit, anyway, though...
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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"Not yet"

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tfaal

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 01:25:23 pm »

I'm pretty sure that never happens. You would end up getting a "collides with an obstacle" line in your combat reports, like you do when an enemy charges past a dwarf into a wall. Since the dodge roll can check for that, it shouldn't be too hard to keep dwarves from dodging into open space.
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.

Werdna

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 02:31:47 pm »

Dodging would be cool if a successful dodge let you stay in your square, say X% of the time, and dodge out of your square Y% of the time, where x+y = 100% and X increases/Y decreases at each level of dodge skill.
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Creamcorn

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2010, 02:42:25 pm »

"OH NO! That carp is gulping at me menacingly, even though it cannot really threaten me from here on land!  I KNOW! I'll dodge into the water, where I'll be safe!"

Sigged, I also found that walling off potential splatter areas helpful in keeping dwarfs alive.
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"OH NO! That carp is gulping at me menacingly, even though it cannot really threaten me from here on land!  I KNOW! I'll dodge into the water, where I'll be safe!"

Lightning4

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 08:08:22 pm »

Yeah, this has been the case since the release of the first 3d version. However, you can turn dodging off as an adventurer, so the skill has definite applications.

Older than that. As long as dwarves have been able to dodge attacks, they've been able to fall into things. The only things that would really kill them in 2D were the chasm and/or the lava moat.

I had an idiot artifact-maker dodge into the chasm once. Plus several skilled military dwarves. It was fun.
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Sensei

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2010, 08:13:28 pm »

Ramps. Put them near water. Save dwarves.

Also, is it weird to anyone that no body of water ever except for cave lakes (and the ocean I think) naturally has shallow sloping edges?
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tfaal

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Re: Dodging is more deadly than helpful.
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 01:06:04 am »

Yeah, that should probably be rectified. You could even replace the current brooks with ramped rivers that have two points of water in them. I've got something like that in my back yard, although it's technically a creek.
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I still think that the whole fortress should be flooded with magma the moment you try dividing by zero.
This could be a handy way of teaching preschool children mathematics.
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