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Author Topic: Is dwarf fortress communist?  (Read 25486 times)

Mckee

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2010, 03:22:05 pm »

Also, substantiate does not mean just say so and thus make me continue to rely on your trust, I'd actually like proof, either a link or even a reference to something. Not to be snarky, but if I just believed your claim, why would I have asked in the first place.
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nil

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2010, 03:32:45 pm »

Buddy, I would like you to substantiate the claim of more capitalist societies having free healthcare than socialist/communist. And I don't mean in sheer numbers (flawed because there are more capitalist countries than socialist) instead in percentage. I'd be interested in seeing that.

Also, in economics alone, a fort is like a commune, but some aspects - nobles, legendaries possibly and the hive mind player do change this.

Easy, there isn't a communist country with universal healthcare and education lol.

Citizens pay more money for healthcare in China than they do in Europe lol.

It is funny too, because only Americans(who listen to Glenn Beck) think this way. In the rest of the world, healtcare isn't any more socialist than roads, police, firefighters, etc. Which is weird because you don't see people in America calling it socialist that they spend tax dollars to make sure the poor eat properly inspected meat.

Cuba does, do you have any citations for that claim? Saying all people who listen to Glenn Beck follow him is just stupid, and saying that only Americans listen to Glenn Beck is also stupid. You might not want to say American because that implies people from the continent of America (33 different countries). Please dont use lol after your sentences because it makes you look like a 9 year old. (and even then we have a 9 year old here who doesnt say that after their sentences).
please don't do this guys, there are other places to have political discussions.  places where half the moderation team isn't the sole developer of my favorite computer game, for example

devek

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2010, 03:35:47 pm »

Also, substantiate does not mean just say so and thus make me continue to rely on your trust, I'd actually like proof, either a link or even a reference to something. Not to be snarky, but if I just believed your claim, why would I have asked in the first place.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VBF-3VR6C26-1C&_user=10&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F1999&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ea590072f7790868baa962a30d9fdb81

As China becomes more capitalist, the cost of healthcare for is going down.

I can't provide a citation of an college education where you study eastern european countries who revolted against their socialist governments and instituted universal healthcare right after.

I have been all over the world, and I can say that the thought that something paid for by taxes=socialism is a weird one and you don't see it everywhere.
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mwanafalsafa

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2010, 03:37:09 pm »

Yea I would say it's somewhat communist. But that doesn't necessarily say much, since we're trying to apply terms used to describe economics systems in the real world with a program that, though amazing as far as simulations go, is still a far, far cry from the workings of a real economy with real people.

Than why are capitalist countries more likely to have free healthcare and education than socialist countries?

Words don't mean what you want them to mean, lol.

Oh I mean the game itself is somewhat communist. I wasn't talking about healthcare or education at all.

Editted... I said a lot of other stuff but in the interest of keeping things on topic I'm just not going to go there... Perhaps we can start a thread in the OT forum?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 03:42:19 pm by mwanafalsafa »
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devek

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2010, 03:46:21 pm »

But here's my thoughts on healthcare...

"Free" or public healthcare and education (in quotes because they're not actually free, they're just paid for by taxes and inflation of the money supply) exists in countries with predominantly capitalist economies.

You just said it yourself...  *head asplode*
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"Why do people rebuild things that they know are going to be destroyed? Why do people cling to life when they know they can't live forever?"

mwanafalsafa

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2010, 03:48:50 pm »

But here's my thoughts on healthcare...

"Free" or public healthcare and education (in quotes because they're not actually free, they're just paid for by taxes and inflation of the money supply) exists in countries with predominantly capitalist economies.

You just said it yourself...  *head asplode*

oh no I didn't delete my OT fast enough, oh well... lol...

Anyway... I did just say that... I never denied it in the first place!
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devek

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2010, 03:51:26 pm »

I didn't think it was anymore OT than someone comparing a monarchy to communism and hitler lol.

Was King Richard a communist?




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INSANEcyborg

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2010, 03:55:32 pm »

It's not limited to communism, but don't forget about all the propaganda.  All those engravings of the fort's founding, and the leader's rise to power... 
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HebaruSan

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2010, 03:57:53 pm »

DF is presently incoherent in the domain of political economy; if you list the defining characteristics of feudalism, capitalism, social democracy, idealized-communism, and really-existing-Communism, DF has a hodgepodge of features from all of them. Even the "economy" is not clear-cut; it introduces a facade of (superficially capitalist) wage labor and commodity exchange, but the money for the wages is not paid by any other individual. The dwarves do not own or exchange means of production as commodities (workshops are built and controlled according to player fiat), but they also don't have workers' councils for the direct collective management thereof.

The closest analogy is corporate: a fortress is a single massive capitalist enterprise, with the player as the capitalist or board of directors, like the "company towns" in coal country in the industrial age, or a modern-day office complex. Workshops and equipment are placed and used wherever and however the company says they should be. A small cadre of privileged managers is groomed to oversee operations and enforce policy decisions, with a shop steward (mayor) elected by the workers to deal with personnel issues. Everything they produce becomes company property, which can be sold to outsiders. Healthcare is paid for by the company insurance plan.

Pre-economy, the dwarves are like salaried employees (paid in-kind) at a start-up who are expected to do whatever tasks are put before them as best they can in a desperate struggle to stay solvent. Post-economy, the company has matured, and it gets tired of them "gaming the system," and so cash incentives for tasks are implemented using company scrip. Prices vary, but based on management's assessment of the situation rather than market conditions. Wages are lower than the value of what's produced, so there's an element of capitalist exploitation, but the profits accrue to the company coffers ("created wealth") rather than any individual dwarf. The company owns all the land, so it builds housing and assigns it or rents it out.
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Shade-o

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2010, 08:18:44 pm »

I think you hit the nail on the head.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2010, 08:29:31 pm »

It seems more like a monarchy to me. When the fort first starts, everything's communal because survival depends on it. Then a king shows up and coins are minted and everything goes to hell.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Shrugging Khan

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2010, 09:22:19 pm »

Well, Shrugging McCommie here sees dwarven society as highly suitable for communist communities. High working morale, low luxury requirements, very flat social hierarchies (if any), egalitarian and progress-oriented culture. Modest standards of living, but a lot of enthusiasm for SCIENCE! Also very accepting of economic control.
An especially large bonus for dwarven commie-ness goes to their ability to build computers. Alright, more like simple calculators at the moment, but who knows? Maybe the dwarves will invent usable computers. With those, a communist society is even allowed to grow to greater numbers, as opposed to the small, almost tribal communities we're used to.

Given sufficient computing power, communist dwarven society can organise its economy with optimal efficiency AND controllability, while simultaneously easing the troubles of population management.

The only question, to me, is this: Can the player truly be an enlightened dictator, and lead the dwarves into a golden age of technology? Or would it be better for the dwarves to remain in their tribal state, unbothered by the hazards of high technology and psychotic overlords?
Well, they'd have to get rid of their nobles in the second case.

Communism, dwarven and real-world, works either in its rudimentary form (which is to say: for prehistoric people), or in an utopian one (which would be in the future, and later rather than soon). Or MAYBE as a parallel social/economic structure, in coexistence with free markets (as opposed to superimposed in hybrid forms such as "social market economy"). And, as all such things do, it requires either enlightened leadership, or some form of non-populist democracy...however that may work.

For dwarves, it's a tough world. Psychotic nobles and a maniac player.

And for real...what would you prefer? A potentially benevolent ruler who can push for progress, but might turn out to be crazy? Or the same eternal stew of corrupt politicians and idiot voters that makes the modern world such a mess? Player or nobles?


...


I'm going to sleep. Feels like I'm brabbling too much.
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loose nut

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2010, 09:26:19 pm »

Yeah, I think HebaruSan described how it works most accurately. The ascension of legendary dwarves that no longer have to worry about money is an interesting wrinkle, but maybe these are just trusted workers.

Although mature forts usually have way more goods than the individual dwarves need.

This thread did remind me how I wanted to start a Jacobin fort. All nobles die, of course! And eventually, the king is lured to the fortress and killed. Also, any dwarf with greater than casual allegiance to a deity gets thrown out the floodgates too.

No dwarf shall be free until the last king is thrown into the magma with the last priest!
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Shrugging Khan

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2010, 09:35:04 pm »

God damn Jacobins, with their god damned guillotine. Proving once again that strong leadership with acceptable goals will eventually defeat weak leadership with desirable goals.

EDIT: I'm talking about Napoleon, of course. And going to bed for real now :<
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Not a troll, not some basement-dwelling neckbeard, but indeed a hateful, rude little person. On the internet.
I'm actually quite nice IRL, but you people have to pay the price for that.

Now stop being distracted by the rudeness, quit your accusations of trollery, and start arguing like real men!

monk12

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Re: Is dwarf fortress communist?
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2010, 10:51:34 pm »

-snip-
CORPORATE
-snip-

That is the best, and most unique, description of the situation I have heard yet. It's also historically accurate for the colonies of the British/French/Spanish empires in the New World, where the goal was to expand influence and turn a profit.

Hm, I wonder if future developments in the Caravan Arc will lead to the Monarchy instituting a Mercantile system, and showing up with an army to punish offenders, with the possibility of revolution or civil war? Because that would be awesome.
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