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Author Topic: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers  (Read 2916 times)

ed boy

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 11:29:40 am »

nope - it would use and Exabit of memory: there are several bits to the byte.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 04:04:07 pm »

That is only assuming that you put the whole level in RAM at once. Have you ever heard of perlin noise? It ir fairly random, but the same coordinates always give the same result, so it takes 0 kb of RAM to store the parts not in use, has potentially unlimited resolution, supports n dimensional textures. With some layering, you can give it infinite detail.

Look at these:
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Outcast Orange

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 04:28:32 pm »

I'm keeping an eye an this Alfie.
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Nivim

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 11:03:40 pm »

 A little while back I spoke with my father about a variant a chess, "four-D chess", he played in college with his ~astronomy professor. Both of them had to use advanced mathematical proofs for moves they did in the other dimension, and it was good practice for both of them. My father spoke with cheer of a night he spent working out another proof for a move he theorized he could do, then completely surprised his professor when he used it an it worked out. Sadly, searching "4 dimension chess" or variants brings up games that allow moves through time or just use the name, not the kind that requires advanced mathematics or thinking at a quantum physicist level.
 If you can find, I think you could get some good ideas as to how to structure your game. I'll message Vector to see if 'e can help.
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Vector

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 11:13:20 pm »

So, I'll admit that I don't know much about this sort of thing--but I have played a sort of similar game before (5d, obviously, because there were four spatial directions + the ability to move).  The way they did it was by overlaying the different maps in a bunch of dissimilar colors, and then toggling through with an extra key.  That was a maze, though, I think.

I'll also have to submit here that I don't know all that much about gaming, so... could you please define a "block based puzzle platformer," and give a couple of standard 3D examples?
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Nivim

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 12:22:07 am »

 I couldn't find any good examples; but think 3d tetris, minecraft/infiniminer, or some Zelda puzzles. Games where the goal is to move blocks to complete some kind of goal. They may or may not have a character that moves the blocks.
 It doesn't sound like Alfie has decided the kind of puzzle beyond using a 5d grid with blocks, likely because he wants to figure out how to display and control said grid and blocks first.
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Imagine a cool peice of sky-blue and milk-white marble about 3cm by 2cm and by 0.5cm, containing a tiny 2mm malacolite crystal. Now imagine the miles of metamorphic rock it's embedded in that no pick or chisel will ever touch. Then, imagine that those miles will melt back into their mantle long before any telescope even refracts an image of their planet. The watchers will be so excited to have that image too.

eerr

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 09:13:53 am »

I can't imagine any puzzles that require 5d, unless you're trying to fit everything on the same screen.
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Vector

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2010, 11:26:11 am »

Yeah, at this point I'm having trouble figuring out the "why" of all this.  It's basically impossible to implement 5d in 3-space, and even mathematicians have extensive difficulty visualizing anything beyond 4 (hence nivm's commentary about mathematical proof, I imagine).

To be sure, there's always the "why not" factor, but I've got to say that the "why" factor usually outweighs that in my mind.
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ed boy

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2010, 11:37:41 am »

even mathematicians have extensive difficulty visualizing anything beyond 4
If you're a methematician, you don't need to visualise them. Instead, thanks to the glory of maths, you have people nowadays working with 196883-dimensional shapes.
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Vector

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 11:41:32 am »

even mathematicians have extensive difficulty visualizing anything beyond 4
If you're a methematician, you don't need to visualise them. Instead, thanks to the glory of maths, you have people nowadays working with 196883-dimensional shapes.

The hyper-symmetrical snowflake, right?

Yes, notation and machinery will do a lot for you--but we're talking about a video game, here, to be played by people who aren't going to sit down at their computer and start proving that they can move a block one space.  That means visualization, and if visualization can't happen for mathematicians, it seems unlikely that ye olde randome internetter is going to be able to do any better.
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alfie275

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2010, 12:17:30 pm »

nope - it would use and Exabit of memory: there are several bits to the byte.
Wrong, each block takes up a byte, so 8^20 = 1152921504606846976 bytes
1152921504606846976 bytes / 1024 = 1125899906842624 kilobytes
1125899906842624 kilobytes / 1024 =  1099511627776 megabytes
1099511627776 megabytes / 1024 = 1073741824 gigabytes
1073741824 gigabytes / 1024 = 1048576 terabytes
1048576 terabytes / 1024 = 1024 petabytes
1024 petabytes / 1024 = 1 exabyte

I know that I should be using kibi mebi gibi tebi pebi exbi instead of kilo mega giga tera peta exa, but noone uses the proper prefixes.

Also, @Eer, the same could be said about 3d puzzles.

If people can understand 4D(miegakure) and even time travel(achron), then 5 should pose not too much of a challenge.
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ed boy

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2010, 12:22:37 pm »

but if all you need to know about a block is whether it exists or not, then that's a bit - each block would be either 1 or 0.
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alfie275

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2010, 01:11:28 pm »

Its actually less CPU intensive to use a byte. Also, what sort of puzzle would it be without other types of blocks, eg doors, keys, pushables.
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Draco18s

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2010, 02:10:25 pm »

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cerapa

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Re: 5 and nth (spacial)dimensional block based puzzle platformers
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2010, 02:12:04 pm »

If people can understand 4D(miegakure) and even time travel(achron), then 5 should pose not too much of a challenge.
You are confusing being able to understand and actually being able to navigate.
A 4d space you can imagine as many different layers of 3d spaces you can jump through, with 5d you gotta imagine additional 4d worlds.
At least in my mind it creates so many additional layers that I wouldnt be able to navigate at all. Even less so with no display.

This could really be a fun game, but hard as hell.

And thanks for reminding me to check on achron.
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