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Author Topic: Crusader Kings 2 is released.  (Read 802596 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13110 on: September 07, 2017, 05:44:49 pm »

But what do I do when the bloody Norse reform?

I had that problem in my Roman game. Damn Norse reformed, now I get to play goalie against aggressive Norseman bullying the continent.
Declare Germany to be a no-bully zone, from which you can then progressively strike into Denmark and then Sweden with deus vult bullying. Once Denmark and Sweden are allowed to bully everyone else things should calm down until the Icelandic menace devours the world. If the HRE gets bullied into oblivion all hope is lost, flee to India or pray to Odin for deliverance

pisskop

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13111 on: September 12, 2017, 06:49:37 pm »

Spoiler: bigolemap (click to show/hide)

So, in 978, byzantine is not on the table when they are unfied.  35k to my 25k or so.

I just finished sieging Rome to end their petty little crusade whille raiding italy to support my vassal germany in their effort to take land.

Hispania actually lost most of spain for a while, but are creeping back in.  For a while castille was the dominant iberian power.  As it is, they are now the de jure holders of brittany.  What a joke.

Egypt is the most powerful mussie, excepting maybe syria.  Khazaria has finally stopped reeling long enough to retake Rus, and Ruthenia is now mine.  I had a string of bad emperors, and cheating wives who needing murdering.  their sons also required murdering.  We almost lost the empire due to the thinning of the male lineage until a daughter with a non-pisskop was the heir.  But we fixed that.

Gonna keep going for a while to see what happens.  The catholic world is dead; shattered into heresies and a mixture of norse and my own conquests.  Speaking of, sweden and danmark are my religion now, as are several smaller counties around me.  those arseholes.



For my own, I just finished dowing every single small state next to me at once, in an attempt to game the stupid 'defensive alliance' system.  nom nom nom
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13112 on: September 13, 2017, 10:26:32 am »

Depending on your retinues you could probably beat their 35k without too much trouble. With Italian or Scottish it'd be easy; with pure Defense retinues you could probably do it but you'd need to set up some good ambushes like moving your retinues to their border before war declaration and then cleaning up as many of their levies as possible before they combine.
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Tawa

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13113 on: September 16, 2017, 05:46:40 pm »

It's been really bothering me recently how the Byzantine Empire never falls in this game. Starting in 1066, the Byzantines lose Armenia, at most. It doesn't bother me as much in the earlier starting periods because there's plenty of time for history to fly off the rails before Byzantium's historical decline, but the gradual destruction of the Byzantine Empire was a driving force throughout much of medieval history, and Seljuk conflict was what really caused its death spiral to kick off, IMO.

If it were up to me, Suleiman Seljuk would be added to the Turkic conquerors, and he would always declare an invasion of Anatolia, which would be renamed "Rum" if held by a Turkish character (rather than Rum being an uncreatable titular title existing 1077 onward.)

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13114 on: September 16, 2017, 08:14:54 pm »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.

Scripting an invasion is definitely the realistic solution, but it'd be nice if the game had more mechanisms for things degenerating, whether in central leadership or general province quality.
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Tawa

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13115 on: September 16, 2017, 09:12:27 pm »

Definitely. The only time my own empires have toppled were when I was playing Rome runs and had conquered all the way to de jure France, and even that was fueled by war bitterness and religious tension. Perhaps Centralization's effects could be changed somewhat and have a vassal opinion modifier attached, so that the more decentralized an empire is, the more their vassals dislike them; at the moment, Low and Minimum are almost always superior to anything higher than that because it's generally optimal to own only one duchy (or maybe two small ones) personally and let your vassals administrate everything else.

Since we're talking about this, I think there are two key problems with the portrayal of the HRE in the game: Italy and succession law. To my understanding, Italy was significantly more autonomous under the Emperor than Germany. However, in CKII, Tuscany is just as much a part of the Empire as Saxony, and Italy never breaks free to look the way it does in the later start dates. Perhaps the modified tributaries in the next expansion (including permanent tributaries) could be used to better represent the Italian lands.

The other thing is that casually changing succession from Elective to Primogeniture, as Heinrich Salian is wont to do in-game, is absolutely absurd. The HRE ought to have a special tag that prevents its holder from changing succession laws outside of certain criteria (such as Max Crown Authority without Conclave and Imperial Administration with it,) or at least imposes an extra-heavy vassal opinion penalty when this happens.

Muslim blobs specifically have a mechanic to make them fall, it just isn't as effective as it should be. IMO, the chance for a character to break free after a decadence revolt should be cranked way up; barely anyone breaks free currently.

pisskop

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13116 on: September 16, 2017, 09:43:59 pm »

I would think that strong vassals should be capable of 'bending the feudal arrangement' to do things otherwise not possible would set it right.  court intrigue in the empire could stand to use some tweaking.
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Rolan7

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13117 on: September 16, 2017, 10:41:53 pm »

I feel like The Council was a step in that direction, giving a few vassals (*usually* the most powerful) an intentionally obnoxious amount of power.

But that doesn't capture the essence of a powerful "vassal" straining against their liege.  Blurring the lines.
Reality doesn't into clear tiers like that, the game has always been an approximation.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13118 on: September 17, 2017, 02:21:37 pm »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.

Scripting an invasion is definitely the realistic solution, but it'd be nice if the game had more mechanisms for things degenerating, whether in central leadership or general province quality.
Having vassal obligations and title tiers be less cut and dry would be a good start. As it is, you can't model the King of England having Ducal obligations (William) to France in his Norman holdings; As soon as he gets a king title, he pulls out all his obligations to his King, without the King even being given a claim to get them back.

Having titles be less "A king can only swear fealty to an Emperor" and be less "We can only have one liege (of a higher title)" would help a lot. And if a title could be more fluid in terms of power, that the Byzantine Emperor could have more or less vassals (and those vassals be more or less powerful) less in terms of "I'm the Emperor so you're my bitch" and more based off the state of the realm and his power. If the Emperor isn't able to tell you, the Duke of Cyprus, what to do, then why are you going to give him anything more than lip service? Or if the King could, on a weeks notice, have 10 thousand troops sieging your own house, then you're not going to say "Nah, bitch, I'm a King so fuck off!~" Not to mention that, except for tribal rulers, you *can't* tell your ruler to fuck off with regards to troops. He might get more or less based off relations, but even when I've had -100 relations with *all* my vassals, I still got at least as many as my own holdings, possibly 2 or 3 times.

I'm not really sure what they would look like in practice though. I mean the tributary states are kind of in the right direction, but you still can't owe vassal obligations for "part" of your realm; the King of France should have (and only have) control over the King of England when it comes to the original vassal contract holdings in Normandy. And the power of the emperor should model the waxing and waning; including that sometimes he's little more than a particularly purple duke, and other rulers aren't going to bend the knee to him.

Though a lot of the problem is that a province is just too stable; Barring development of the holdings, a province that's really good is going to stay really good (though the prosperity system helps a little) So the really good holdings of the Byzantine Empire are *always* really good, and the emperor can use his vast swathes of troops to fend off invasions that he wasn't able to in history.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13119 on: September 18, 2017, 08:54:32 am »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.

Scripting an invasion is definitely the realistic solution, but it'd be nice if the game had more mechanisms for things degenerating, whether in central leadership or general province quality.

This is my number two complaint in CK2 (after feudal taxes in Western Europe).

The sad thing is that even when they try to do things like decadence invasions, it doesn't really work.
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Teneb

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13120 on: September 18, 2017, 11:10:25 am »

You know the drill by now


Well, it looks like the Levant is even more valuable now.

scriver

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13121 on: September 18, 2017, 12:03:36 pm »

These kind of changes is great for fools like me who derive an embarrassing percent of their geographic knowledge of the world from vidya gaems.
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pisskop

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13122 on: September 18, 2017, 12:13:19 pm »

i live in a country where I'm feeling optimistic if somebody says

 'Ukraine is north of Crimea'


or

if somebody can tell me where turkey is.  i have almost bo faith that the answer will be better than 'somewhere in the middle East'
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:15:29 pm by pisskop »
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drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.

Tawa

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13123 on: September 18, 2017, 12:46:08 pm »

Uuugh, Abbasid name placement is going to be terrible... I wish this game had owned wastelands like in EU4 :|

scriver

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #13124 on: September 18, 2017, 01:27:53 pm »

That Kaspian sea kingdom is I'd like made to give the 800s Zoroastrians a kingdom in a single war.

Also now I can finally live out my dreams to be a Reporter-King of al-Jazira.
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