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Author Topic: Crusader Kings 2 is released.  (Read 1990037 times)

Descan

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8160 on: July 02, 2015, 12:40:37 pm »

Which raises the question of whether or not a non-yurt-living culture that had conquered China would have become Chinese? They'd still have the "need to understand the language" part, of course, but the rest of it?
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a1s

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8161 on: July 02, 2015, 01:02:38 pm »

Which raises the question of whether or not a non-yurt-living culture that had conquered China would have become Chinese? They'd still have the "need to understand the language" part, of course, but the rest of it?
Kinda? I mean, it would hinge on the "technically, it's not a Yurt" defense, but yeah. All the tribals would probably be fine with becoming Chinese, whereas various Byzantines, Muslims and Indians would probably not. I expect other Europeans to be on the fence - A German Prince carving out a Far-east colony half a millennium ahead of schedule (with the backing of Rome) would prefer to remain a German (even as he learns the language), but a similar adventurer accidentally getting "lost" on his way to Jerusalem would probably let his children become Chinese, even though he himself would view Mandarins with a large degree of irony ("Their culture might be rich and public sanitation might stop plagues, but they never did find anything to counter good old European steel-and-guts, heh.")
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BFEL

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8162 on: July 02, 2015, 06:14:48 pm »

I'm now picturing Jade Empire as ruled by Sir Ponce Von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8163 on: July 02, 2015, 06:40:55 pm »

When my Serbia run accidentally conquered India I had two big problems with the continent; the first was that the Miroslavs I was bringing were overwhelmingly German and not Serbian, the second was that the Miroslavs were nevertheless adopting the local culture and marrying the locals. Oftentimes this would not coincide with their children, so you'd have one generation of edgy rebellious princes and princesses embarrassed by their parents trying to be indian rebelling by becoming Serbian (with a little help from Serbian shadow ministers of education).
I imagine this problem would be magnified tenfold with China. Although quite interesting, is the prospect of a foreign ruler remaining foreign, but delegating provincial rule to local Princes. Effectively no culture change would ever, ever happen, besides maybe the Emperor's culture moving to the capital. It would make succession explosive but you'd not have to bother with peasant revolts. You can either deal with anywhere around 2-3 centuries of peasant revolts and end up with an Empire of happy nobles of one culture and one people or compromise with an Empire of unhappy nobles but happy people or an Empire of unhappy people with happy nobles. It's usually better to either side with the people or replace them with your people, as nobles are fickle and unlikely to like you either way.

BFEL

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8164 on: July 02, 2015, 09:13:18 pm »

When my Serbia run accidentally conquered India

I missed the part where the Miroslavs pulled a reverse Columbus.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8165 on: July 02, 2015, 10:22:17 pm »

You mean a successful Columbus :P
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RedKing

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8166 on: July 02, 2015, 10:45:52 pm »

I imagine this problem would be magnified tenfold with China. Although quite interesting, is the prospect of a foreign ruler remaining foreign, but delegating provincial rule to local Princes. Effectively no culture change would ever, ever happen, besides maybe the Emperor's culture moving to the capital. It would make succession explosive but you'd not have to bother with peasant revolts. You can either deal with anywhere around 2-3 centuries of peasant revolts and end up with an Empire of happy nobles of one culture and one people or compromise with an Empire of unhappy nobles but happy people or an Empire of unhappy people with happy nobles. It's usually better to either side with the people or replace them with your people, as nobles are fickle and unlikely to like you either way.

Historically, the Yuan Dynasty did the latter option, while the Manchu Dynasty did mostly the first option (though after a while they started employing Han nobility as well, just because they were running out of Manchus to give titles to -- it takes a LOT of people to administer an empire that damn big).

The Mongol modus operandi was to leave the local government of a place mostly intact at the lower levels and just replace the top guy. Find the smartest, most respected local leaders, co-opt them with a mixture of rewards and threats, and let them run the day-to-day stuff. Keeps the locals happy, and cuts down on how many of your horde you need to leave behind to run the place.

The downside of this in China was that it tended to speed up the Sinicization process. The Manchu knew this, so they insisted on appointing Manchu nobles and keeping the Han a subservient class. The Yuan ruled for about 90 years. The Manchu, for about 270. So history seems to have spoken on which was more effective. But there's another factor -- religion.

There were a couple of *massive* revolts during the 1800s (the Taiping Rebellion and the Dushan Rebellion -- the Taiping Rebellion being estimated to have been one of the deadliest conflicts in human history) but in general, the Manchu Qing successfully used Confucianism to foster popular support. To that extent, Confucianism as a religion should have serious revolt-reducing benefits, but at the cost of technological progress (the emphasis on social order and orthodoxy also being responsible for centuries of technological stagnation). Taoism and Buddhism should be alternate options, with Buddhism already defined in the game as giving tech benefits. (The Yuan Mongols were Tibetan Buddhists and made Buddhism the state religion, building stupas all across China).

Not sure how Taoism should be handled -- it was never a state religion, and frequently when it showed up in Chinese politics, it was as the basis for popular rebellions like the Yellow Turbans. To some extent, it could almost be like a heresy of Confucianism (although as a Taoist myself, that is so laughably wrong...) with a stability/revolt malus, but I'm not sure what the benefit would be. Maybe an event chain to get super-statted characters, kind of like the Antichrist event chain for Christianity? That would actually be in keeping with Chinese popular mythology too, where Taoist rebels are often depicted as black magicians.  :P


Something else interesting (and sort of occurs naturally in CK2 if you come to a royal/Imperial throne via the right kind of war) is that it was customary for a new dynasty to invest the dethroned Emperor from the old dynasty with a Ducal (公) title and fief. As it is now, if you usurp a title, the usurpee typically does keep their lower titles.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8167 on: July 03, 2015, 07:02:43 am »

When my Serbia run accidentally conquered India
I missed the part where the Miroslavs pulled a reverse Columbus.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Teal = Serbian Empire (everything in the south)
This is the Serbian Run that made 21,000 Miroslavs and made so many characters it crashed the EUIV export every time. Every Emperor, King, most of the Dukes, many Lords and a surprising number of Barons were Miroslavs. In addition all the Popes were Miroslavs, and every grandmaster of the Holy Orders were Miroslavs.
Spoiler: Image is relevant (click to show/hide)

To some extent, it could almost be like a heresy of Confucianism (although as a Taoist myself, that is so laughably wrong...)
Same as Yazidi and Manicheanism being heresies :P
with a stability/revolt malus, but I'm not sure what the benefit would be. Maybe an event chain to get super-statted characters, kind of like the Antichrist event chain for Christianity? That would actually be in keeping with Chinese popular mythology too, where Taoist rebels are often depicted as black magicians.  :P
Jainism already provides stability bonuses through opinion boosts, something could be emulated there. I'd be kinda interested in legalism as a religion, that gives you vassal limit boosts/crown authority benefits and stuff like that.
Something else interesting (and sort of occurs naturally in CK2 if you come to a royal/Imperial throne via the right kind of war) is that it was customary for a new dynasty to invest the dethroned Emperor from the old dynasty with a Ducal (公) title and fief. As it is now, if you usurp a title, the usurpee typically does keep their lower titles.
If they don't kill themselves ;-;
I'd be interested in how China would handle fuckhueg armies. Have massive levies and massive supply limits? This would also quite naturally avoid Chinese doomstacks just rolling westwards until they own the world, akin to how the pagan supply malus avoids Byzantine/Frankish troops from rolling northwards.

Culise

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8168 on: July 05, 2015, 11:34:43 pm »

Gave Life is Tribal + Shattered World a whirl on a lark after the post above.  First ruler gave me five sons, one daughter, gavelkind succession, but made it in a single bound from the County of Orleans to the King of France through what I can only term as abuse of one of the mod's new CBs (basically a County Conquest on steroids - no cost, one-year cooldown; also, if an enemy happens to use it on you - or the target you just annexed using this CB, which drags them into the war against you as the new holder - and is decisively defeated, you get a free strong claim on them to exercise the second the truce expires).  Second ruler has now given me eight sons, zero daughters.  Since I'm not inclined to abuse the assassination mechanics, my tribal fief is starting to look like all the Saxonies at this point: Saxe-Weimar, Saxe-Lauenburg, Saxe-Eisenburg, Saxe-Meiningen, Saxe-Jena, Saxe-Gotha, Saxe-Colburg, Saxe-Colburg and Gotha, Saxe-Saxe-bacon-eggs...this is totally the game's revenge for my Kyiv run where I went, in two Queens, to reformation of the tribal state into a feudal kingdom and reformation of the Slavic faith, without ever once going through a single gavelkind divide. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 11:41:47 pm by Culise »
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dennislp3

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8169 on: July 06, 2015, 12:06:30 am »

I prevent gavelkind divides by simply expanding really really fast...as long as you are at least duke with only one duke title of course

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8170 on: July 06, 2015, 02:22:40 pm »

I just clocked; the game could sorely be improved in depth with an option to invite others into factions and alliances.

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8171 on: July 06, 2015, 02:26:43 pm »

I just clocked; the game could sorely be improved in depth with an option to invite others into factions and alliances.
I assume you know about the spymaster ability, right? But yeah, having factions be a bit like plots would be nice.
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Iceblaster

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8172 on: July 06, 2015, 02:29:07 pm »

I just clocked; the game could sorely be improved in depth with an option to invite others into factions and alliances.
I assume you know about the spymaster ability, right? But yeah, having factions be a bit like plots would be nice.

Yeah, as it is now, Factions are just there. While they are useful if you join a really powerful one, being part of a faction or forming one is sorely lacking in options. Can't really do much other than hope you can beat your liege.

Persus13

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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8173 on: July 06, 2015, 02:33:06 pm »

I just clocked; the game could sorely be improved in depth with an option to invite others into factions and alliances.
I assume you know about the spymaster ability, right? But yeah, having factions be a bit like plots would be nice.

Yeah, as it is now, Factions are just there. While they are useful if you join a really powerful one, being part of a faction or forming one is sorely lacking in options. Can't really do much other than hope you can beat your liege.
And sending your spymaster out to scheme in other vassal of your liege gives a chance for an event to pop allowing them to join. I haven't ever used it because I tend to avoid factions or be independent, but I've noticed its there, so I can't verify how well it works.
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Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #8174 on: July 06, 2015, 02:36:56 pm »

I know about that. I am just really unlucky about council rolls so no matter how high it is I always end up getting 'nope nothing at all'. Then again, I've never really made my own factions. I prefer to just expand into the most powerful duke/king in the kingdom/empire and just hope I win an independence war by myself :3
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