Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 839 840 [841] 842 843 ... 1002

Author Topic: Crusader Kings 2 is released.  (Read 1990178 times)

IronyOwl

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nope~
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12600 on: September 16, 2017, 08:14:54 pm »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.

Scripting an invasion is definitely the realistic solution, but it'd be nice if the game had more mechanisms for things degenerating, whether in central leadership or general province quality.
Logged
Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Tawa

  • Bay Watcher
  • the first mankind all over the world
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12601 on: September 16, 2017, 09:12:27 pm »

Definitely. The only time my own empires have toppled were when I was playing Rome runs and had conquered all the way to de jure France, and even that was fueled by war bitterness and religious tension. Perhaps Centralization's effects could be changed somewhat and have a vassal opinion modifier attached, so that the more decentralized an empire is, the more their vassals dislike them; at the moment, Low and Minimum are almost always superior to anything higher than that because it's generally optimal to own only one duchy (or maybe two small ones) personally and let your vassals administrate everything else.

Since we're talking about this, I think there are two key problems with the portrayal of the HRE in the game: Italy and succession law. To my understanding, Italy was significantly more autonomous under the Emperor than Germany. However, in CKII, Tuscany is just as much a part of the Empire as Saxony, and Italy never breaks free to look the way it does in the later start dates. Perhaps the modified tributaries in the next expansion (including permanent tributaries) could be used to better represent the Italian lands.

The other thing is that casually changing succession from Elective to Primogeniture, as Heinrich Salian is wont to do in-game, is absolutely absurd. The HRE ought to have a special tag that prevents its holder from changing succession laws outside of certain criteria (such as Max Crown Authority without Conclave and Imperial Administration with it,) or at least imposes an extra-heavy vassal opinion penalty when this happens.

Muslim blobs specifically have a mechanic to make them fall, it just isn't as effective as it should be. IMO, the chance for a character to break free after a decadence revolt should be cranked way up; barely anyone breaks free currently.
Logged
I don't use Bay12 much anymore. PM me if you need to get in touch with me and I'll send you my Discord handle.

pisskop

  • Bay Watcher
  • Too old and stubborn to get a new avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12602 on: September 16, 2017, 09:43:59 pm »

I would think that strong vassals should be capable of 'bending the feudal arrangement' to do things otherwise not possible would set it right.  court intrigue in the empire could stand to use some tweaking.
Logged
Pisskop's Reblancing Mod - A C:DDA Mod to make life a little (lot) more brutal!
drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
PKs DF Mod!

Rolan7

  • Bay Watcher
  • [GUE'VESA][BONECARN]
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12603 on: September 16, 2017, 10:41:53 pm »

I feel like The Council was a step in that direction, giving a few vassals (*usually* the most powerful) an intentionally obnoxious amount of power.

But that doesn't capture the essence of a powerful "vassal" straining against their liege.  Blurring the lines.
Reality doesn't into clear tiers like that, the game has always been an approximation.
Logged
She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12604 on: September 17, 2017, 02:21:37 pm »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.

Scripting an invasion is definitely the realistic solution, but it'd be nice if the game had more mechanisms for things degenerating, whether in central leadership or general province quality.
Having vassal obligations and title tiers be less cut and dry would be a good start. As it is, you can't model the King of England having Ducal obligations (William) to France in his Norman holdings; As soon as he gets a king title, he pulls out all his obligations to his King, without the King even being given a claim to get them back.

Having titles be less "A king can only swear fealty to an Emperor" and be less "We can only have one liege (of a higher title)" would help a lot. And if a title could be more fluid in terms of power, that the Byzantine Emperor could have more or less vassals (and those vassals be more or less powerful) less in terms of "I'm the Emperor so you're my bitch" and more based off the state of the realm and his power. If the Emperor isn't able to tell you, the Duke of Cyprus, what to do, then why are you going to give him anything more than lip service? Or if the King could, on a weeks notice, have 10 thousand troops sieging your own house, then you're not going to say "Nah, bitch, I'm a King so fuck off!~" Not to mention that, except for tribal rulers, you *can't* tell your ruler to fuck off with regards to troops. He might get more or less based off relations, but even when I've had -100 relations with *all* my vassals, I still got at least as many as my own holdings, possibly 2 or 3 times.

I'm not really sure what they would look like in practice though. I mean the tributary states are kind of in the right direction, but you still can't owe vassal obligations for "part" of your realm; the King of France should have (and only have) control over the King of England when it comes to the original vassal contract holdings in Normandy. And the power of the emperor should model the waxing and waning; including that sometimes he's little more than a particularly purple duke, and other rulers aren't going to bend the knee to him.

Though a lot of the problem is that a province is just too stable; Barring development of the holdings, a province that's really good is going to stay really good (though the prosperity system helps a little) So the really good holdings of the Byzantine Empire are *always* really good, and the emperor can use his vast swathes of troops to fend off invasions that he wasn't able to in history.
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

ZeroGravitas

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12605 on: September 18, 2017, 08:54:32 am »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.

Scripting an invasion is definitely the realistic solution, but it'd be nice if the game had more mechanisms for things degenerating, whether in central leadership or general province quality.

This is my number two complaint in CK2 (after feudal taxes in Western Europe).

The sad thing is that even when they try to do things like decadence invasions, it doesn't really work.
Logged

Teneb

  • Bay Watcher
  • (they/them) Penguin rebellion
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12606 on: September 18, 2017, 11:10:25 am »

You know the drill by now


Well, it looks like the Levant is even more valuable now.
Logged
Monstrous Manual: D&D in DF
Quote from: Tack
What if “slammed in the ass by dead philosophers” is actually the thing which will progress our culture to the next step?

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12607 on: September 18, 2017, 12:03:36 pm »

These kind of changes is great for fools like me who derive an embarrassing percent of their geographic knowledge of the world from vidya gaems.
Logged
Love, scriver~

pisskop

  • Bay Watcher
  • Too old and stubborn to get a new avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12608 on: September 18, 2017, 12:13:19 pm »

i live in a country where I'm feeling optimistic if somebody says

 'Ukraine is north of Crimea'


or

if somebody can tell me where turkey is.  i have almost bo faith that the answer will be better than 'somewhere in the middle East'
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 12:15:29 pm by pisskop »
Logged
Pisskop's Reblancing Mod - A C:DDA Mod to make life a little (lot) more brutal!
drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
PKs DF Mod!

Tawa

  • Bay Watcher
  • the first mankind all over the world
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12609 on: September 18, 2017, 12:46:08 pm »

Uuugh, Abbasid name placement is going to be terrible... I wish this game had owned wastelands like in EU4 :|
Logged
I don't use Bay12 much anymore. PM me if you need to get in touch with me and I'll send you my Discord handle.

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12610 on: September 18, 2017, 01:27:53 pm »

That Kaspian sea kingdom is I'd like made to give the 800s Zoroastrians a kingdom in a single war.

Also now I can finally live out my dreams to be a Reporter-King of al-Jazira.
Logged
Love, scriver~

EnigmaticHat

  • Bay Watcher
  • I vibrate, I die, I vibrate again
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12611 on: September 18, 2017, 01:59:02 pm »

Breaking news!  Al-Jazira is now at war with Syria!  We will crush the dogs with our infinite armies!  You heard it here first folks.
Logged
"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

misko27

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lawful Neutral; Prophet of Pestilence
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12612 on: September 18, 2017, 05:31:01 pm »

I'd consider that a specific example of a far more general and ancient problem, being that empires don't really have a method of "falling," per se. They can be diminished or swap ownership under certain circumstances, but even that tends to be pretty rare for the big guys.
I completely agree. There just isn't, I don't know, there's no easy way to lose land. You can easily gain land as an empire, hell your vassals may literally do all of the work for you! I find myself a duchy bigger than I remember all the time. So empires just accumulate by nature, but there's no, what's the right phrase here? There's no counterbalancing force to that accumulation, no attritional land loss. There is, at least, a mechanism for a shattering empire (Independence factions), but vassals inevitably flock to something stupid like "Increase council authority". So you see a massive civil war engulf the empire, and then you look back in five years time and it's just sitting there, as it always has, except now the emperor has to ask permission before he banishes people. And there's no way for individual vassals to escape unless they are almost as powerful as the emperor, because there's no way that some 2-bit duke in the England is going to rebel against his Holy Roman Master (I saw the emperor inherit England once, and he destroyed the title; it was awful), and why would he? He'd just get absolutely destroyed when the emperor gets around to crushing him beneath his mighty deathstacks, no matter how long it takes.

I'm not really sure what they would look like in practice though. I mean the tributary states are kind of in the right direction, but you still can't owe vassal obligations for "part" of your realm; the King of France should have (and only have) control over the King of England when it comes to the original vassal contract holdings in Normandy.
I'm not sure if that's doable with the current engine. The current model of CK2 is based on the importance of defacto titles and stuff rather than de jure things (is Normandy a dejure duchy of France? Doesn't matter as soon as the Duke of Normandy is King of England). They'd need to really emphasize the dejure stuff more. maybe in CK3 if not CK2.

Uuugh, Abbasid name placement is going to be terrible... I wish this game had owned wastelands like in EU4 :|
You're telling me. Man, I love map updates, but a little bit of aesthetics go along way (although haven't they updated the name placement? I seemed to see someone imply that from a screenshot of Tibet.)
Logged
The Age of Man is over. It is the Fire's turn now

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12613 on: September 18, 2017, 06:46:25 pm »

I don't like that they replaced muh arab tribal counties with wastelands. I really liked them

Tawa

  • Bay Watcher
  • the first mankind all over the world
    • View Profile
Re: Crusader Kings 2 is released.
« Reply #12614 on: September 24, 2017, 10:03:52 pm »

I've been trying incessantly to play a French character as of late. I've mostly been trying people based on how cool their coats of arms are and have adamantly refused to play anybody with more than one county to their name, something that I haven't done since I played Ireland for the first time.

What I've learned so far:

- It is really really ridiculously annoying playing a one-county Christian count. You have precisely two ways to expand: fabricating claims and marriage.

- Fabricating claims never fricking works. I kid you not, I had a 25 diplomacy chancellor sitting on the same county from the day I put him on the council to his death, and not once did he ever manage to fabricate a thing.

- The game of thrones, meanwhile, is an exercise in frustration. Marriages that aren't for the purpose of scheming claims will produce twenty children who live for eighty years each. Marriages intended to give you a claim to a single county will lead to your wife producing a sickly girl and then dying in a freak manure-tavern accident. On the off chance she does not die, all your decent heirs will die at the rate of EU4 6/6/6 rulers and 3-star generals, and you will be stuck with a lazy, hare-lipped, clubfooted imbecile with a weak claim. Don't even think of marrying female rulers; they will invariably be dethroned, get assassinated, or join a failed rebellion and be stripped of their titles.

- If you claw your way up to a remotely prominent status, things will fall apart within thirty years due to circumstances beyond your control. I tried an unorthodox approach: tearing apart the HRE from inside by playing the one-county duke of Savoy, then creating Burgundy and scheming my way onto the throne of France. I created Burgundy and declared independence, along with Italy. Within thirty years the King of Italy had sworn fealty to the Emperor again for no discernible reason, and the King of Bohemia flawlessly pulled off a scheme to inherit Upper Burgundy, the largest duchy in Burgundy.

Coincidentally, the two really annoying roadblocks I hit on this list would be solved with the CBs the next update will add. Border dispute would prevent the problems expanding as a count, and I could reclaim Upper Burgundy with one war using De Jure Duchy claims.

On another note, the devs really didn't think ahead with Heinrich Salian's mother. She has a weak claim to Aquitaine, which Heinrich inherits when she dies. The Duchy of Aquitaine covers at least 75% of the Kingdom of Aquitaine at game start, and because the Duke's wife is 40 years old and he has exactly one kid, a daughter, the HRE conquers Aquitaine from Philippe constantly.
Logged
I don't use Bay12 much anymore. PM me if you need to get in touch with me and I'll send you my Discord handle.
Pages: 1 ... 839 840 [841] 842 843 ... 1002