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[Pilsu]

Wouldn't tourists be a bit of an anachronism?


Refugees would likely draw enemy troops to your fort. That in itself is a good excuse not to kill them as it increases your strategic importance overall and provides increased challenge. One should of course have the ability to turn them away if they can't or won't be housed but this would probably lead to bad blood and diplomatic fallout. You are setting up a fortress after all, it is expected of you to provide safety for the neighboring region.

[Flaede]

2/ Also the idea of having lots of small traders instead of 1-3 per year today. While the idea itself is nice, I think that it would lead to less enjoyable gameplay - now I have to enter the trade screen and trade just few time per year, more or less being able to buy anything I want. But if would need to do that dozen(s) of time, searching for stuff I need, just because those small merchants dont carry enough stuff with them, I would get pretty annoyed...

I would think that this would be more in line with the Economy phase, where the dwarves would do their own self-initiated trading, entirely separate from you. Ie. they would buy the stuff they own dang selves, and you wouldn't need to activate your broker unless the 'trader' had something really awesome that you wanted, and you didn't want to kill them off for it for whatever reason (like, say, they might come back with more some other time).

Your dwarves would be all "Hey! It's Hawl the Trader!" then at the soonest opportunity, they'd slack off, and have "meetings" with the trader.

"What do you have for us today?" 
"Let's see here, a broken wagon wheel, a bowling ball in a wooden bird cage, and a brick"

And then they'd trade away their hard earned belongings for junk.

Alternatively, it might be like Trader Manuel in which case Fun must ensue. He would demand tonnes of food for the Bandersnatch, and in the process some fool dwarf would open The Box Never To Be Opened. It would all go downhill from there.

[existent]

2/ Also the idea of having lots of small traders instead of 1-3 per year today. While the idea itself is nice, I think that it would lead to less enjoyable gameplay - now I have to enter the trade screen and trade just few time per year, more or less being able to buy anything I want. But if would need to do that dozen(s) of time, searching for stuff I need, just because those small merchants dont carry enough stuff with them, I would get pretty annoyed...

But, if each trader announced what they carried, it wouldn't matter. If a trader shows up, you go check him out and see that he's a "Weapon Trader". Well, you don't need weapons, do don't even bother. Next one's an Alcohol Trader, and this you do need, so you hit him up at the inn.

[loose nut]

IMO the seasonal caravans make sense for younger forts, say up to year 5 or 10, and it should maybe turn into a steady stream of traders as the fort gets further established.

[NW_Kohaku]

My, this blossomed quickly.  I guess it really was my tl;dr nature that stunted the growth of so many of my other threads...

I added a few links to recent threads I thought were related or relatable to this discussion on the OP.

Anyway, I do like the mechanic of having "stores that actually do something", with the ability to set up "shopping malls" for tourists, where you can designate what crap you want to get rid of (special on microcline mugs!), and what you want to buy (anything steel, most raw metal ores, gems).  That's what it pretty much boils down to in trading, anyway: get rid of the stuff you don't need, like stone crafts and food, and buy the things you can't get very much of ordinarily, like metal and gems.  (Of course, it would be odd for people to routinely walk in carrying backpacks full of magnetite stones... but carrying some meltable metal items would make some sense.)

This might go better the further along we go with getting other things, like alchemy, involved in the game - adventurers might bring back rare and exotic Eye of Newt from monsters that you can't normally find that are chemical components you could use for more complex and rare reactions.  (Or brining back meteor shards so you can make Meteoric Iron.)

If we have the technology thing, foreigners might be able to trade knowledge that relates to the making of something you don't have access to inside your own fort, or at least pass along scraps of information on it, even if it's just being able to learn how to add "turbans" to your clothing line.

[Andeerz]

Wouldn't tourists be a bit of an anachronism?

In today's sense, I guess it would be.  But imagine if a fort could be considered a Holy Land, or a stop for pilgrims making their trek to said Holy Land, or if it was a huge trading center along a highly traveled trade route, or, like you said, a place where refugees would go.  All of these are not anachronistic and were quite common throughout history, and were the reasons for shopping districts, inns and taverns, as well as hospitals. 

Also, about sharing of knowledge and teaching skills and stuff... imagine if some knowledge was guarded, like armouring techniques by armouring guilds and the like IRL, and sharing of such knowledge could be governed by said guilds... this could pave the way for interesting interactions, like infighting among competing guilds, or between governing bodies and guilds.

Perhaps black markets could result if forbidden goods were trafficked through a trading area.  That would give the justice system something else to worry about, or not if they get paid off... hee hee hee. 

[Areyar]

-a master smith has entered your fort.
-Ulan master of smithing offers to teach armoury skills.
-Ulan was smitten by Ast, Fist of the Smithing Guild.

[Flaede]

-a master smith has entered your fort.
-Ulan master of smithing offers to teach armoury skills.
-Ulan was smitten by Ast, Fist of the Smithing Guild.

Ulan proposes, but Ast is betrothed to another.

Hijinx ensue.

[NW_Kohaku]

imagine if a fort could be considered a Holy Land, or a stop for pilgrims making their trek to said Holy Land

So, if you cage a titan or a dragon that is worshipped as a god, and chain him/her up like King Kong in your Grand Mead Hall, you'll get its worshippers to come visit their chained up deity, and watch the shows the dwarves force him/her to put on?

I don't see ANYTHING that could go wrong Fun with that!

[Strangething]

Visitors might be connected to the dwarven economy. They wander around your shops buying crap with foreign coins. This gives coins a reason to exist: it's the only way to do business with visitors. Trade goods are for professional merchants.

Coins would work better if fortress citizens preferred to use credit. Maybe the Tax Collector could gather up coins, in exchange for fortress credit.

I'm picturing a building that works like the trade depot.  You can call your broker (or whatever) to interact directly with a specific visitor.

As for specific types:

Work for Hire: Once you pay them, they act as part of your fortress, until the contract expires. After that, they either renegotiate, or wander off. They can be military or civilians.

Foreign Dignitaries: These guys come to visit your nobles. Hopefully they will leave happy.

Entertainers: These guys start a party, which your dwarves will attend. Good thoughts for everyone. A noble might demand a command performance in his throne room.

Sightseers: They have come to see your legendary dining hall, zoo, statue garden, etc.

Mourners: Relatives to visit the graves of dead dwarves. Also, humans and elves might show up to claim the remains of dead merchants/visitors.

[Sunday]

Wouldn't tourists be a bit of an anachronism?

What about Ibn Battuta? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Battuta)

Edit: I mean, technically he might be a tiny bit past the date (mid 1300s), but not enough that it's really anachronistic, IMO.

[NW_Kohaku]

Work for Hire: Once you pay them, they act as part of your fortress, until the contract expires. After that, they either renegotiate, or wander off. They can be military or civilians.

Actually, I think this might work much better if we use this as part of a way to reduce the immigrant floods.

Part of the things Toady has said is that he wants it to be possible for dwarves to decide to just emmigrate out of your fort, and out to the villages around it, so that you have to have a nicer place for dwarves to actually want to live there.

(Of course, if we are speaking about having more complex ideas of what a "nicer place" is, there's always Class Warfare and Pursuit of Happiness.)

So, instead of having massive floods of immigrants, we get few people who just want to move in, unless maybe they're family of someone already living and working in your fort who has made a success of themselves, and encouraged their family to come join them. 

Other than that, you have itenerant workers who may come, especially if you have plenty of industry going on, (as in, they only come if they hear you have plenty of jobs, and they are out of work) looking for jobs on contract.  You have to pay them to keep them, but they may just settle down if they like it there. 

If you DON'T want them, you can just refuse to contract them, and they walk away.  No need to be forced to deal with overly abundant immigrants.

Something similar can happen with refugees, where they only come if you have proven your fortress to be a very safe place, especially by being capable of slaughtering any ambush or seige that comes your way.  Refugees may be temporary, or you might be able to put some to work and get them to stay.

Actual members of your fortress ("Citizens"?) would be the ones who could work on Company Credit.  Foreign dwarves would want coin, or at least bread, for their work.  (This assumes that Fortress economics follow a somewhat Corporatist model, like a mining company, where employees of the company get their food and supplies from company stores, and live on company credit accounts.)

[Flaede]

(Of course, if we are speaking about having more complex ideas of what a "nicer place" is, there's always Class Warfare and Pursuit of Happiness.)

Actual members of your fortress ("Citizens"?) would be the ones who could work on Company Credit.  Foreign dwarves would want coin, or at least bread, for their work.  (This assumes that Fortress economics follow a somewhat Corporatist model, like a mining company, where employees of the company get their food and supplies from company stores, and live on company credit accounts.)

Here we go. Union busting Fortress Guards, seditious pamphlets/engravings, and roaming Working-Class Agitators (to bring us back to the OP).  Also an elitist Old Guard (in the non-military sense) composed of only those who have lived through a Mood, and desire status (and its privileges) accordingly. "These Newcomer Immigrants, stealing our jobs! Working for less pay! Undermining the System!"

[NW_Kohaku]

Heh, something like that - owing your soul to the company store is pretty much what I was thinking about talking about with "Company Credit Accounts".

(For those who don't know, the mining companies would own the only stores in town - there was no competition because they owned all the land (and would fire and evict the miners from their homes if they protested or unionized or went on strike) - and overcharged the miners for all the services at the company store, forcing them into debt at the company store.  Work as much as you might, the system was basically designed to ensure debt slavery, and that you would probably die a miner, never able to escape the debt, and never able to fight for better mine safety, better pay, or even leave because the company owned the police, too.  There's a reason why coal mining towns are some of the most impoverished, most polluted, worst health and healthcare, lowest educated areas of the country even to this day.  The Free Market has spoken.)

[nil]

I like the idea of an intermittent stream of merchants replacing the formal caravans.  Trading should be automated, though; I'm tempted to argue for ditching the trade screen entirely, although I suppose there's no reason not to keep it around for emergencies.  I'm not crazy about having my dwarves choose goods either, as they usually have terrible taste.  Instead, I'd like to see a trade interface where you can set priorities for various goods, similar to the trade liaison screen (actually, there's no reason for it to not be the trade liaison screen, so long as we can access it at any time).  Your only other responsibility would be to designate trade goods, which your broker will then exchange for whatever goods you've set a less-than-zero priority for, starting with the most desired goods and continuing down.  If there are desired items available and no trade goods left at the depot(s?), the player could be informed via an announcement, and while I'm a little more wary of automating exportation there are definitely ways to streamline the selection system.

We could have several different types of caravans, from lowly tinkers leading a lone donkey to well-armed caravans full of precious gems and metals.  If the system were flexible enough, it could handle other visitors as well--designate food, booze, and/or coin as trade goods for your inn, set up requests for military service, etc as priorities.