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Author Topic: Cavern Concerns  (Read 1033 times)

Rex_Nex

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Cavern Concerns
« on: August 22, 2010, 02:43:32 pm »

Sorry if anything in here is a spoiler, if it is, it should be minute.

Right now, caverns are, to say the least, generic. You *might* find a interesting feature in a cavern after a dozen or so embarks, but overall, its pretty... blah. We have all suggested tons of ideas over and over, and I'm not about to make a repeat thread, but here is something I would like to point out...

Caverns, in Dwarf Fortress, are world-wide, regardless of pretty much everything. Hell, they will modify the world just to appear. In my opinion, this is just plain unrealistic. Caverns should be like caves and what not, just a little more common. They shouldn't be in every zone like they are now, and just having the fact that they are rarer makes each time you find a cavern more of a surprise, and you are more likely to appreciate its features. Just my little tidbit, carry on.
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Decimator

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 05:07:11 pm »

So.... you want most sites to be boring and have no features?
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Andeerz

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 05:20:05 pm »

I agree with the OP so long as its a feature able to be governed by a world gen setting like all other features.  I, for one, wouldn't care if my location didn't have caverns.  I'd make do with what I've got.  And as the game gets developed further, the gameplay experience regardless of the presence of caverns will be enriched enough.
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Vattic

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 05:21:47 pm »

While I agree that caverns can be a big generic (hasn't Toady mentioned this?) and that more features suggested in the Underground Diversity thread would improve the game if implemented the existence of caverns in every embark square is deliberate. Back in the 2D days every map had the same features. With 3D came the loss of that certainty and complaints about it. The latest update makes things more like the 2D days again.

I miss cave rivers mostly.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 07:18:21 pm »

There's a difference, though, as features like having access to magma or underground water will determine whether you can or cannot perform certain functions in your fort.  In 40d, not having underground water meant no tower caps and no wild plants.  No magma meant one of the most flexible tools in the dwarven toolbox is missing.

When you have caverns that have wild plants (or rather, plant-like fungi) and animals roaming around, and always have access to magma, and can trade for sand, you can then start putting in different additional features that would be interesting (like underground rivers or chasms) without completely locking some part of the game out just because you embarked in the wrong place.

I would agree that this "underdark" style of caverns doesn't exactly lend itself towards having unique features, and that it tends to give the impression that the caverns are everywhere (although you can make it more narrow and make the wide open chambers less common), so that we might hope for caverns that more look like winding, twisting pathways water formed more than "oh my god, half the layer is missing", but I think the solution is simply to add a more advanced system for randomization so that there is an off-chance of finding something new and different.

It was actually something I talked about in the raw-editable town thread where we could also have caverns with rare features that players could add in, so that Dig Deeper types of mods might add massive numbers of new "lost ruins" or underground features or monster nests or green rocks that make mutant monsters spawn or something that we could find in different embarks with a very low chance of occuring, so that they would be real surprises.
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Shadowclaimer

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 07:45:19 pm »

I actually hated the cavern I generated in my recent game.. it was just too much, it didn't look like any cave I'd ever seen, it looked like.. well I can't even explain it, it was just lots of one wide corridors and wayyy too many ramps. Its the first cavern I've ever seen, so hoping in the future I find some better looking ones, because it was almost depressing to find it and then be like "damn its so big" then "wow this is confusing, I'm just going to mine it out in a giant box 18 wide 18 deep"
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 08:44:40 pm »

You can tweak the worldgen parameters to change what the caverns will be like, although I haven't played with that too much.

I'd reccomend whipping out reveal from DFHack, generating some worlds, and seeing what you can do to make "better looking" caverns.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Shadowclaimer

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 09:22:16 pm »

You can tweak the worldgen parameters to change what the caverns will be like, although I haven't played with that too much.

I'd reccomend whipping out reveal from DFHack, generating some worlds, and seeing what you can do to make "better looking" caverns.

I don't know why but personally I just like my caves being more robust and spherical, with wide corridors and less ramps.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 07:40:54 am »

Well, I'm pretty sure chamber size and tunnel width are two of the variables you can mess with.  Of course, real caverns do have plenty of up-and-down action, but you can probably make caverns shallower, and reduce the number of ramps.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
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Shadowclaimer

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Re: Cavern Concerns
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 07:56:43 am »

Well, I'm pretty sure chamber size and tunnel width are two of the variables you can mess with.  Of course, real caverns do have plenty of up-and-down action, but you can probably make caverns shallower, and reduce the number of ramps.

Yay for the things I learn in forums =D
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