Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


Pages: 1 ... 521 522 [523]

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 671108 times)

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7830 on: August 01, 2024, 07:02:09 am »

Eh, there are two types of miracles though.  There are "personal" miracles which are convincing for the person experiencing it, like a vision, or a sudden improvement in health, or whatever.

Then there are public miracles, which are those that are seen by many people.  Most of the Catholic Church "saint" miracles are... not seen by that many people, at least not in the sense that Jesus crucifixion and subsequent appearances were.  Many of the middle-ages miracles are also what I'd call circumstantial evidence.

I have to admit, even though I'm a Christian, the one miracle that seems to be hardest to believe is the virgin birth... it's an outrageous claim with not a lot of witnesses. Basically all we have is a couple Gospel writers interviewing Mary.
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7831 on: August 01, 2024, 08:39:45 am »

OT is focused on the actions of God and people endorsed and supported by him. NT is focused on the actions of Jesus (kinda actions of God but... not really) and Paul saying how great and all-loving God is and how we should act to be his proper servants.

This makes NT ill-suited for evaluation of the character of God, he is barely present there.
I don't think he is (or should be but that's a different can of worms) very present either so that tracks with the policy. :shrug:

I actually do believe that Jesus rose from the dead but that that was the last major miracle. On what basis, you ask... does there need to be a basis?

Objectivity is an illusion, because everything potentially is. But pulling aside the pointless veil of subjectivity    -    yes, there needs to be a basis. Even if that basis is 'because most people think so,' that's still a rational impulse which may lead to the germ of truth.

As for Jesus' rising being the last major miracle, there's a vast literature of miracles spanning centuries after his death. Various saints have died, risen, become talking heads, supped from the teats of wolves etc.

In their day and age, these were taken as seriously as you take Jesus' rising. I tend to conflate them, myself, as stemming from the same impulse - and not being grounded in reality. But I am not religious, sooo... operating from a Christian perspective, there are plenty of major miracles after Jesus, it's just you choose to ignore them. This is convenient for your narrative, but not for the truth - and any healthy faith should be more rigorous in its thought and application than to reject for the sake of rejection and narrative preservation.


I'd say my usual thing about truth being essentially subjective outside of STEM fields, but more importantly you're accusing me of believing something I actually don't. Do you think I, as a Protestant, accept Catholic doctrine? Why? (if there's a Catholic there I'd like to hear their take on them tbh)
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7832 on: August 05, 2024, 12:47:51 pm »

Eh, there are two types of miracles though.  There are "personal" miracles which are convincing for the person experiencing it, like a vision, or a sudden improvement in health, or whatever.

Then there are public miracles, which are those that are seen by many people.  Most of the Catholic Church "saint" miracles are... not seen by that many people, at least not in the sense that Jesus crucifixion and subsequent appearances were.  Many of the middle-ages miracles are also what I'd call circumstantial evidence.

I have to admit, even though I'm a Christian, the one miracle that seems to be hardest to believe is the virgin birth... it's an outrageous claim with not a lot of witnesses. Basically all we have is a couple Gospel writers interviewing Mary.

I mean, most of Jesus' miracles are also not seen by that many people. In the case of the resurrection, we can observe very similar instances connected to Mary up to modern times. A famous example is that of La Vang (Vietnam.)

Quote
Many people sought refuge in the rainforest of La Vang in Quảng Trị Province, Vietnam, and many became very ill. While hiding in the jungle, the community gathered every night at the foot of a tree to pray the rosary. One night, an apparition surprised them. In the branches of the tree a lady appeared, wearing the traditional Vietnamese áo dài dress and holding a child in her arms, with two angels beside her. The people present interpreted the vision as the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus Christ. They said that Our Lady comforted them and told them to boil leaves from the trees for medicine to cure the illness.

As for medieval miracles lacking witnesses, that's - an incredibly broad claim. Many had only a few (though important) witnesses. There are hundreds of accounts of children being resurrected before their mothers, etc. Joan of Arc shared divine revelations with the French court, allowing them to retrieve a well-described sword from a place Joan had never been.

On the other hand, there are ones witnessed by large groups. See for instance St. Anthony of Padua:

Quote
The story of Anthony "preaching to the fish" originated in Rimini, where he had gone to preach. When heretics there treated him with contempt, Anthony was said to have gone to the shoreline, where he began to preach at the water's edge until a great crowd of fish was seen gathered before him. The people of the town flocked to see this marvelous thing, after which Anthony charged them with the fact that the fish were more receptive to his message than the heretics of the church, at which point the people were moved to listen to his message.

Overall, both of your 'miracle types' are observed well into the modern era. It would require more research than I'm willing to invest to verify, but I reckon all of Jesus' miracles were recreated by some Saint or other in equally believable circumstances, and with as much (or more) of a weight of evidence.

I'd say my usual thing about truth being essentially subjective outside of STEM fields, but more importantly you're accusing me of believing something I actually don't. Do you think I, as a Protestant, accept Catholic doctrine? Why? (if there's a Catholic there I'd like to hear their take on them tbh)

there are plenty of major miracles after Jesus, it's just you choose to ignore them. This is convenient for your narrative, but not for the truth - and any healthy faith should be more rigorous in its thought and application than to reject for the sake of rejection and narrative preservation.
Your denomination is the reason you choose to ignore later miracles. This is convenient for a Protestant narrative, but not for the truth - and any healthy faith should be more rigorous in its thought and application.



............

The claim that everything is subjective is pointless grandstanding, to be honest. It sounds good, it grabs attention, and it justifies less than rigorous practices. It is a device for protecting an unstable argument.

It is, of course, theoretically correct. Practically, it is misleading, obfuscating, intellectually dishonest, etc. There is ALWAYS a method for comparing sources/approaches and coming to conclusions, and 'it's subjective ergo I could be right ergo my argument is as sound as any other' is not (a good) one.
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Eschar

  • Bay Watcher
  • hello
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7833 on: August 05, 2024, 01:59:29 pm »

Indeed, Jesus says explicitly that all those who believe in him (not limiting anything by time or place) will do miracles greater than he (John 14:11-12), and in Mark 16:17-18 that these signs (again stated to accompany ALL who believe) will include such as healing the sick by laying on hands, drinking poison without getting sick, snake handling, etc.  A Christian who professes no belief in miracles associated with most believers long after Jesus' resurrection has these verses to contend with - and frankly I don't think there's an interpretation of Jesus' teachings that squares with that belief. These statements are plenty clear and emphatic.

(Like TD1 - unless I'm misreading his earlier post - I'm not religious.)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2024, 02:03:39 pm by Eschar »
Logged

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7834 on: August 05, 2024, 03:21:35 pm »

I didn't say I didn't believe in miracles post-Jesus. Mostly my criteria for evaluating them is "what fruit did they bear." The ones that were basically parlor tricks... don't pass the smell test. There are indeed many that I think are honest, probably more than were even recorded to be honest. But of the ones that were recorded...  guess I have to examine myself.

I'm curious about the "only a few people saw the resurrection" claim? Wasn't Jesus seen by hundreds of people after the resurrection?  I think there were no claimed witnesses to the event itself, but tons of "I don't know how this person could be walking around after what the Romans did to them, unless they were resurrected."
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

TD1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7835 on: August 05, 2024, 05:18:19 pm »

the "only a few people saw the resurrection" claim

If this is directed towards me, I didn't claim that. Apologies, I perhaps ran two ideas together. 1) Many of Jesus' miracles had few witnesses. 2) Even in the case of the exception, the survival of Jesus (which according to... Paul, I think? 500 odd people saw), there are similarities with modern miracles (the mass sightings of Mary).
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  TD1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7836 on: August 05, 2024, 05:51:53 pm »

Ah ok, I might've misread it as well.  No worries!
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7837 on: August 08, 2024, 07:30:01 am »

The claim that everything is subjective is pointless grandstanding, to be honest. It sounds good, it grabs attention, and it justifies less than rigorous practices. It is a device for protecting an unstable argument.

It is, of course, theoretically correct. Practically, it is misleading, obfuscating, intellectually dishonest, etc. There is ALWAYS a method for comparing sources/approaches and coming to conclusions, and 'it's subjective ergo I could be right ergo my argument is as sound as any other' is not (a good) one.
Thing is, I don't believe that outside of STEM that there is such a method. Thinking that everything is quantifiable requires as much faith as any religion, imho. Because there is as much proof for it as for a religion... little to none.

And again, I value utility over Truth(tm), but that's another kettle of fish. Call me a nihilist, call me unprincipled, but I find it makes life easier and, oddly enough, makes it make more sense.
I didn't say I didn't believe in miracles post-Jesus. Mostly my criteria for evaluating them is "what fruit did they bear." The ones that were basically parlor tricks... don't pass the smell test. There are indeed many that I think are honest, probably more than were even recorded to be honest. But of the ones that were recorded...  guess I have to examine myself.

I'm curious about the "only a few people saw the resurrection" claim? Wasn't Jesus seen by hundreds of people after the resurrection?  I think there were no claimed witnesses to the event itself, but tons of "I don't know how this person could be walking around after what the Romans did to them, unless they were resurrected."
Yea. I meant that there was and will be nothing on the scale of Jesus' resurrection, or anything that went on in the Old Testament... etc. Minor interventions in life, ok.
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

McTraveller

  • Bay Watcher
  • This text isn't very personal.
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7838 on: August 13, 2024, 02:28:19 pm »

Quote from: unknown
Reality has no bias. It just is.
Logged
This product contains deoxyribonucleic acid which is known to the State of California to cause cancer, reproductive harm, and other health issues.

Magmacube_tr

  • Bay Watcher
  • Praise KeK! For He is The Key and The Gate!
    • View Profile
Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #7839 on: August 16, 2024, 06:38:49 pm »

Quote from: unknown
Reality has no bias. It just is.

Though it does like liberals more.
Logged
I must submerge myself in MAGMAAAAAAAAA! daily for 17 cents, which I detest. I also geld memes.

My gaem. JOIN NAOW!!!

My sigtext. Read if you dare!
Pages: 1 ... 521 522 [523]