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[Virex]

Complexity is not having arctan(20*e^1554 -0.98) options, but having a limited amount of resources to expend on dealing with a variety of opponents in which the player has to correctly identify the way to expend those resources.

Difficulty =/= complexity. And the result of arctan ranges from -pi/2 to pi/2, that's a pretty strange number of options to have.

Wups, that should've been arctan(20)*e^1554-0.98


Anyway, choices are at the core of any complexity (disregarding obfuscation as a way to make things more difficult) and choices are almost always about resource management. "Do I use a bigger engine or a bigger gun for this task" "Is expending most of my current resources on an air force the way to win" "How to build the correct character for dealing with this or that boss". Even in Rainbow Six, where most of the complexity used to come in the planning stage, one has to cover a certain set of objectives with a limited amount of soldiers, meaning that lack of knowledge is compounded by a limited amount of resources to create more relevant choices and thus a more complex (and coincidentally also more challenging game). Essentialy, brute-forcing is the simplest way to solve a problem and the less you can brute-force and the more has to be taken into account the more complex a game is.
While it may seem like complexity could also come from a lack of information, one has to remember that limited information does not cause choices if there are unlimited resources available, since then one could just cover every possible option. Only exception is when there are options that are not obvious but in almost all of those cases obfuscation is required, which is just artificial withholding important information from the player. It would be interesting however to see if it's possible to build a complex game that gives a player unlimited resources (time is also a resource) and shows all mechanics up front.

[Virtz]

A God simulator with a 1:1 recreation of our universe would be something endlessly complex regardless of lack of challenge for the player.

[DJ]

Dwarf Fortress's complexity mainly comes from the fact that there's no tutorial, most functions aren't detailed anywhere and the game's actively trying to make your life hard trough "features" that cause non-obvious problems, such as wall-builders getting themselves stuck, defenders preferring to party instead of guard and nobles wrecking your productive population. To each of these problems, there is a standard, but also non-obvious solution. Once you know these, Dwarf Fortress is just a sequence of tricks that you apply. This makes it an excellent sandbox game where you can easily build an inverted, magma filled pyramid with at least some challenge, but it does not make for a complex game. There are no real choices since almost everything can be done in one way only. Where this is not the case the choices are either equal or one is clearly superior/inferior. I would say that Dwarf Fortress is simpler then Starcraft. More detailed, sure. But not more complex.

You must make the most boring fortresses ever. People are still inventing ridiculous mechanical contraptions, take that fully functional calculator fortress for example.

[Ivefan]

Dwarf Fortress's complexity mainly comes from the fact that there's no tutorial, most functions aren't detailed anywhere and the game's actively trying to make your life hard trough "features" that cause non-obvious problems, such as wall-builders getting themselves stuck, defenders preferring to party instead of guard and nobles wrecking your productive population. To each of these problems, there is a standard, but also non-obvious solution. Once you know these, Dwarf Fortress is just a sequence of tricks that you apply. This makes it an excellent sandbox game where you can easily build an inverted, magma filled pyramid with at least some challenge, but it does not make for a complex game. There are no real choices since almost everything can be done in one way only. Where this is not the case the choices are either equal or one is clearly superior/inferior. I would say that Dwarf Fortress is simpler then Starcraft. More detailed, sure. But not more complex.

And this made me realize it's pointless to debate further for me because a difference in perception on complexity. DF is complex due to all the underlying mechanics, things it keeps track of such as every part of every living creature and possibilities. The things you point out are bugs, not a part of what i consider complexity.
You're playing wow like a piano, a tangent for every macro, and if the macro didn't sound well, tune it a bit. All my post has been about a game, not about your playstyle. There is the option to do the number crunching and get into the 1%.

[Virex]

DF is very complex as a simulation indeed with all the factors influencing the simulation and the amount of feedback taking place. DF is not complex as a game because there are not many factors influencing the gameplay directly that require attention. As soon as the connection between the simulation and the gameplay becomes stronger (for example, with the caravan arc) then Df will also become complex as a game.


I am sorry for causing this confusion, but I was thinking of MMO's as, well, games and thus applied the factors that would make the gameplay of a game complex to DF as well. I am sorry if I offended someone.


Also, it's funny you should mention WoW, as I do not know much of it and thus can't judge if it's relevant to keep tabs on the kind of spells your opponents will be using. That's why I used Mechwarior as an example, because it is relevant to keep track of your and your opponents weapons there. If it would not be, the game would not be complex as a game (I'll keep repeating that from now on to avoid offending people again).


However it is interesting to think about your view, seeing game complexity as defined by the complexity of their simulation, since that means there is not much relation between the gameplay of a game and it's complexity. Take for example Xcom. One could argue that the simulation in this case is really simplistic, meaning for example that a game like Civilisation 4 is much more complex due to the more intricate interaction between all the elements in Civ as compared to Xcom.

[Ivefan]

DF is very complex as a simulation indeed with all the factors influencing the simulation and the amount of feedback taking place. DF is not complex as a game because there are not many factors influencing the gameplay directly that require attention. As soon as the connection between the simulation and the gameplay becomes stronger (for example, with the caravan arc) then Df will also become complex as a game.

It's great if a game is complex, not so good if it is complex to play in my opinion as it just makes it a bit unnecessarily harder.

Also, it's funny you should mention WoW, as I do not know much of it and thus can't judge if it's relevant to keep tabs on the kind of spells your opponents will be using. That's why I used Mechwarior as an example, because it is relevant to keep track of your and your opponents weapons there. If it would not be, the game would not be complex as a game (I'll keep repeating that from now on to avoid offending people again).

I mixed you up with the previous WoW posters, sorry for that

However it is interesting to think about your view, seeing game complexity as defined by the complexity of their simulation, since that means there is not much relation between the gameplay of a game and it's complexity. Take for example Xcom. One could argue that the simulation in this case is really simplistic, meaning for example that a game like Civilisation 4 is much more complex due to the more intricate interaction between all the elements in Civ as compared to Xcom.

And here i felt that Civ games(or Alpha Centauri, which curiously is the only one of them i like and enjoy) weren't really complex.

I feel that just having a lot of numeric choices does not really add to complexity, as you can put the numbers in a scale going from worse to better after examining the numbers.
Surely, that might require you to think more and make you feel conflicted like "Is this better than this. Ugh, they are so similar"

[kg333]

As for a really complex game (not MMO though), try Achron. Time travel in a multiplayer RTS could easily rank as one of the most complex game concepts.

Wow...

Thanks for the link, that's easily the most interesting concept I've seen in an RTS for a while.  I'll have to check that out later.

KG

[Bluerobin]

As for a really complex game (not MMO though), try Achron. Time travel in a multiplayer RTS could easily rank as one of the most complex game concepts.

Wow...

Thanks for the link, that's easily the most interesting concept I've seen in an RTS for a while.  I'll have to check that out later.

KG

I'm really glad I waded through this thread and found that link. Definitely curious about the specifics, but the gameplay footage they have up looks neat.

Edit: oh geez. The page on paradoxes is making my head hurt a bit. Looks like it could be a lot of fun.

[Soralin]

A God simulator with a 1:1 recreation of our universe would be something endlessly complex regardless of lack of challenge for the player.

Bah, just a handful of particles, most of which aren't even used much, and a few forces, and that's all there is to it? You call that complex?

[Tellemurius]

ok i see how it is you guys complained about me bringing up SS13 and here is the thread talking about DF. i feel insulted.

[Virtz]

ok i see how it is you guys complained about me bringing up SS13 and here is the thread talking about DF. i feel insulted.

It just sorta derailed from "What are some complex MMOs?" to "What is complexity?" since no one could agree on which MMO is actually complex. :S

[Puck]

And WoW is certainly not 'special' with their raids. In fact, almost every MMO out there has at least some situation wherein a whole bunch of people will group up and tackle a major enemy. If we're still comparing to EVE, we've got server-crashing 1000+ ship battles (and they're against a diverse array of enemy ships, instead of a predictable boss, meaning you're far from guaranteed a win).

Just chiming in quickly to mention that (not only recently, but it has become more) "high level" PVE content exists, which need A LOT of coordination, and people regularily lose capital ships when doing that content.