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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released  (Read 97774 times)

Torham

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #300 on: September 21, 2010, 09:20:53 am »

I have waked into the village and murdered EVERYONE i could find in the cottages. They were just standing there, not attacking or hitting me, just staring at me blankly while i chopped them to pieces, one by one.
After that I left, leaved the area and then returned. They villagers have all respawned with different professions. Again, i murdered everyone and again they were back after a quick run out of the village. On the third time i carefully chopped few villager's arms and feet off, leaving them alive, to observe if the living one (with wounds) will be saved. The villagers respawned even when they survived and i couldn't find any of my "marked" mutilated villagers. They were all just standing there, watching me kill them.

PS: I had no fun conducting this survey and i resorted to violence only after i couldn't find any shopkeepers  ;D  ...
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colorlessness

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #301 on: September 21, 2010, 12:50:11 pm »

I've got the same thing happening. I like to set my population cap to 20 for the first couple of years, but I'm now 7 years in without changing my POPULATION_CAP from its initial 20 (set before I even genned the world) and I'm now up to 107 dwarves.

I realized after posting that there are a couple of bugs on mantis that are possibly related/the same thing:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2922
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=643

But those bugs are a little older, and I never experienced them before .13; .12 and earlier seemed to respect POPULATION_CAP properly.
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Untelligent

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #302 on: September 21, 2010, 05:36:32 pm »

Personally, I feel that the 1050 year worldgens that take place now are an often overlooked bug; Worldgen should stop after a certain number of megabeasts are dead, but with the materials rewrite and megabeast buff none of them die in worldgen. In the past, the cutoff would be at around 200-250 years, perfect for braving the new wilds, exploring new territories and prying the riches from the savage lands and their green skinned inhabitants. Now, worldgen runs to the arbitrary maximum of 1050, where everything new has been seen, the good sites taken, and the worlds population trying and failing to kill each other over and over. I'll be happier once Toady brings that back to normal- normal being my experiences in 40d.


I don't see the problem here. Hell, every world used to go to 1050 years.

And if you don't want worlds to go to 1050 you can just change the one worldgen parameter and force it to stop at an earlier year. I wouldn't call this a bug, even if it is undesired behavior.
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Gigify

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #303 on: September 21, 2010, 07:27:37 pm »

Ouch, I just genned a new world in 31.13 and watching the screen flicker to new locations I came to a realization and I soiled myself.

This world, which only has param edits to layers and caverns so there's more to dig into and more space to build in, embark points so I can be somewhat less picky about some locations by bringing along extra wood to a scarce area or something, and , pretty much what I always do, 30 min volcanoes, has at least a dozen easily found flat volcanoes in various areas almost always right next to river tiles. I was super excited to take a look at all the pretty potential embark points, and when I went to the embark screen and started looking at them what did I find?

All but three of the flat volcanoes are covered over by civs, I can't even see them in the local view. Out of the three that aren't I've found one squeezed between two hostile civs with four damn layers of soil that I have to do a 5x5 to embark on if I want the river and the other two are in a "scorching" area with no trees at all.
If anything I'm mostly upset that I don't even get to see the potential of the other sites because they're covered, though.

So what should have been a plethora of great embark locations for me to examine and pick from turned into basically nothing. Fairly annoyed by that.
I had it run until year 250, considering taking these saved parameters again and either drastically cutting down on the civ count or stopping it even earlier and hoping for the best.
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xellas84

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #304 on: September 21, 2010, 09:09:45 pm »

Ouch, I just genned a new world in 31.13 and watching the screen flicker to new locations I came to a realization and I soiled myself.

This world, which only has param edits to layers and caverns so there's more to dig into and more space to build in, embark points so I can be somewhat less picky about some locations by bringing along extra wood to a scarce area or something, and , pretty much what I always do, 30 min volcanoes, has at least a dozen easily found flat volcanoes in various areas almost always right next to river tiles. I was super excited to take a look at all the pretty potential embark points, and when I went to the embark screen and started looking at them what did I find?

All but three of the flat volcanoes are covered over by civs, I can't even see them in the local view. Out of the three that aren't I've found one squeezed between two hostile civs with four damn layers of soil that I have to do a 5x5 to embark on if I want the river and the other two are in a "scorching" area with no trees at all.
If anything I'm mostly upset that I don't even get to see the potential of the other sites because they're covered, though.

So what should have been a plethora of great embark locations for me to examine and pick from turned into basically nothing. Fairly annoyed by that.
I had it run until year 250, considering taking these saved parameters again and either drastically cutting down on the civ count or stopping it even earlier and hoping for the best.

That sounds like an awesome base worldgen.  Can you share?
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Gigify

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #305 on: September 21, 2010, 09:41:58 pm »

Was trying out the Genesis mod with whatever the params on its custom set besides the few I changed, shouldn't have much if any of an effect on the base world, right? Just civs and such.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tell me if those other volcano sites are literally flat and awesome or it's just a trick of the map, though, since I couldn't see the local because of the civ plots. :/

Edit: Picture, you can mock my special mix up of ironhand and mayday sets if you want. the red beartrap looking tiles are volcanoes. :P
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Editedit: The volcano in the middle of the ocean is on it's only little desert island, pretty neat place, didn't check if there was flux or not though.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 09:48:54 pm by Gigify »
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Psieye

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #306 on: September 22, 2010, 04:42:49 am »

Ouch, I just genned a new world in 31.13 and watching the screen flicker to new locations I came to a realization and I soiled myself.

This world, which only has param edits to layers and caverns so there's more to dig into and more space to build in, embark points so I can be somewhat less picky about some locations by bringing along extra wood to a scarce area or something, and , pretty much what I always do, 30 min volcanoes, has at least a dozen easily found flat volcanoes in various areas almost always right next to river tiles. I was super excited to take a look at all the pretty potential embark points, and when I went to the embark screen and started looking at them what did I find?

All but three of the flat volcanoes are covered over by civs, I can't even see them in the local view. Out of the three that aren't I've found one squeezed between two hostile civs with four damn layers of soil that I have to do a 5x5 to embark on if I want the river and the other two are in a "scorching" area with no trees at all.
If anything I'm mostly upset that I don't even get to see the potential of the other sites because they're covered, though.

So what should have been a plethora of great embark locations for me to examine and pick from turned into basically nothing. Fairly annoyed by that.
I had it run until year 250, considering taking these saved parameters again and either drastically cutting down on the civ count or stopping it even earlier and hoping for the best.
Take the random seed of that world, re-do the world regen but end it at year 2. You will now get the exact same world but with much less sprawl.
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #307 on: September 22, 2010, 08:09:43 am »

indeed. it would just mean they would get pissed off, and attack you fairly quickly. Before embarking on a area where you would get attacked and become automatically in war with the race, you should get an embark warning.

Still trawling through this thread, but...

...Actually, decided to put what I've just written into the Suggestions forum...  Probably better off there.  At least to settle and ferment.
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Starver

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #308 on: September 22, 2010, 09:07:15 am »

I have waked into the village and murdered EVERYONE i could find in the cottages. They were just standing there, not attacking or hitting me, just staring at me blankly while i chopped them to pieces, one by one.
After that I left, leaved the area and then returned. They villagers have all respawned with different professions.[...]

Sounds to me (with no real experience of .13 yet) like it derives from the "'entity populations' which are made up of thousands of critters for which less information is tracked" idea.

Although I would have thought that it would be the case that upon actually encountering newly generated beings of a previously 'entity-only' status, there'd be at least some basic delta-saving information so that not only were the same entities rebuilt, but injuries (or absence, and/or remains/graves, if marked as killed) could be duplicated upon revisiting...

Also attitudes and possibly a range of possible consequences.  e.g. "You don't remember me, do you... Well, I was just a kid, then, when you breezed into town an killed my paw...  But since then, I've been training, see...  When not working in my step-father's shop, I've been seeking the best fighters in our land and getting them to train me.  Having turned of age, I was just about to leave town and follow your trail but, surprise surprise, here you are, asking around for the self-same brand of rations you couldn't find last time you were here.  And I've got two bits of bad news for you.  Firstly: we still don't stock them.  Secondly: You wouldn't have had time to eat them, anyway.  My name is Olith Awthrar, prepare to... <URK!>"  (You stab the windbag, already...)
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Torham

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #309 on: September 22, 2010, 12:45:11 pm »

...asking around for the self-same brand of rations you couldn't find last time you were here.

This is the third village that doesn't sell Prepared Dragonfly Brains! I AM IRKED!!
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Mephansteras

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #310 on: September 22, 2010, 01:24:51 pm »

Made an Interesting discovery while modding. Amphibious races will colonize and 'farm' ocean squares. I have a race of turtlemen that have spread out into the oceans of the world and turned much of the coastal waters into little green '=' areas.

I don't think this counts as a bug, since it is both logical and only possible with modding anyway. But I thought it was a fascinating aspect of the new system.
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Sergius

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #311 on: September 22, 2010, 02:20:50 pm »

Something to add to the sprawl "bug":

Most fantasy games abstract towns to a single "tile", that when zoomed in is quite tiny. In the "real world", even a medieval city could be a mile or so in size, with lots of streets and houses.

Dwarf Fortress is trying to be more realistic in making cities take a lot of farmland to maintain, but one reason for the abstraction is that the World isn't actually world-sized... so by making each city take 5x5 tiles or more, we're having a single city the size of frickin' Australia.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #312 on: September 22, 2010, 03:04:55 pm »

Made an Interesting discovery while modding. Amphibious races will colonize and 'farm' ocean squares. I have a race of turtlemen that have spread out into the oceans of the world and turned much of the coastal waters into little green '=' areas.

I don't think this counts as a bug, since it is both logical and only possible with modding anyway. But I thought it was a fascinating aspect of the new system.
How does that work out in adventure mode, especially with the cottages? Prior to this release, ocean towns had the potential to be... somewhat unhealthy for the inhabitants.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #313 on: September 22, 2010, 03:06:58 pm »

Not sure, haven't started an Adventurer there yet. I'll have to try that.

Update: It sticks you in the caverns underground if you start an adventurer of that civ. Even amphibious adventurers can't travel over water in fast travel mode, so I'm not sure what you'd see if you swam from a coast out to those squares. But you'd have to be in regular mode and do your movement the hard way.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 03:49:33 pm by Mephansteras »
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Andeerz

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Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.13 Released
« Reply #314 on: September 22, 2010, 03:49:58 pm »

Something to add to the sprawl "bug":

Most fantasy games abstract towns to a single "tile", that when zoomed in is quite tiny. In the "real world", even a medieval city could be a mile or so in size, with lots of streets and houses.

Dwarf Fortress is trying to be more realistic in making cities take a lot of farmland to maintain, but one reason for the abstraction is that the World isn't actually world-sized... so by making each city take 5x5 tiles or more, we're having a single city the size of frickin' Australia.


Well put, Sergius, and I see your point.  However, if the relative proportion of land-use for agriculture per population is realistic, then this size abstraction shouldn't matter in terms of the proportion of land taken up by civ development.  I mean, a city the size of Australia is unreasonable, but if a city is going to be the DF equivalent size of Australia, it should require the same relative amount of farmland to sustain it as in Australia (taking into account tech) if we are to accomplish the idea I think Toady is trying to accomplish (I COULD BE WRONG).  Some food for thought: roughly speaking for England, France, and the Netherlands at their peak populations before the plague, something around the order of 10% of the total land area of these countries (give or take a few %) was taken up by farmland.  Assuming population levels at 1050 are deemed equivalent to the populations at those times, then the amount of sprawl we see in the current release might be in the ballpark considering there are no plagues and many other things that culled populations IRL. 
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