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Author Topic: Civilization V  (Read 71399 times)

Flare

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #600 on: April 19, 2014, 09:47:01 pm »

Crossbows of the calibre that can pierce a nobleman's custom-made tempered plate deep enough to incapacitate him were often quite expensive and the people who had the technical skills to produce them scarce. This is not to mention that the bolt shafts that were loosed needed to be specially made, and the bolt heads of a comparable hardness and tenacity to the plate itself to achieve any significant penetration to wound a man.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:49:09 pm by Flare »
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Shadowlord

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #601 on: April 19, 2014, 10:47:33 pm »

The peasants weren't producing them themselves, obviously. See for example http://militaryhistorynow.com/2012/05/23/the-crossbow-a-medieval-wmd/

I also doubt that economics really apply in a time when, IIRC, most people didn't have anything resembling money and the barter system was the way things generally worked.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #602 on: April 19, 2014, 10:50:09 pm »

Crossbows of the calibre that can pierce a nobleman's custom-made tempered plate deep enough to incapacitate him were often quite expensive and the people who had the technical skills to produce them scarce. This is not to mention that the bolt shafts that were loosed needed to be specially made, and the bolt heads of a comparable hardness and tenacity to the plate itself to achieve any significant penetration to wound a man.
This all sounds... counter to what I have read before. Could you provide a source?
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #603 on: April 19, 2014, 11:06:31 pm »

Even if crossbows were the armor-piercing wonders often claimed, they were not exactly common among peasants (like firearms are in the modern era, in many areas). In fact, I can't think of anywhere that suggested anyone but the military would own a crossbow. After all, normal bows are perfectly good for any kind of non-peasant-uprising shooty stuff a peasant would do; awfully suspicious, neh?



Anyways. I started a game of Civ V to refresh my memory and put some of your tips into practice, but you know how it goes; you're just playing a bit and before you know it it's midnight and you've barely started what you came in to do.
I'm playing Nebuchadnezzar on a small Earth-style map. I wound up in North America next to what I assume is supposed to be one or more of the Great Lakes. (I thought all civs started in the Old World?) I spread out a bit, exploring, but was restricted by mountains blocking most routes and ocean the rest. I researched Optics to explore Alaska, Greenland, Iceland, South America, and part of Siberia. During this last venture, I came across some people who knew Napoleon, currently at the bottom of the pack, but he later moved up. (I'd like to imagine that his increase in score was because he could casually mention that he knows that guy at the top of the score list, score as high as any two other players, largely due to Science and Wonders I'd imagine.) Anyways, I encountered four city-states: Florence about where New Orleans would be in the real world, Kathmandu in the heart of the Amazon, Singapore in what we would call Argentina, and Budapest's borders before my Siberian scout got killed by barbarians while running from a barbarian ship. Florence complained about Kathmandu, Kathmandu complained about Singapore, Budapest complained about Dublin, and I decided to invade Kathmandu.

I sent two Bowmen to Kathmandu, and discovered two quirks:
1. I should have realized this, but ranged units can't range through woods or the like. Great, this whole thing is going to take even longer.
2. One of the problems I'd been having with capturing cities? They heal faster than I can do damage to them! Here I am, two legions of bowmen raining flaming arrows from the sky, probably daily, for centuries, while the rest of my army was being produced and crawling down North America and the Gulf of, um...dunno what we'd call it, what's halfway between Florence and Kathmandu, Iran? The Gulf of Iran? to the Amazon Rainforest, and nothing was coming of it. Mind, I had not only two archers, but the Statue of Zeus (+15% City Attack), one of the archers had leveled a couple of times, once taking the city raider bonus (+25%), and I was in a Golden Age (almost certain that gives me something). I'm pretty sure there were other bonuses I'm forgetting, but I can't remember. In short, the cards were stacked in my favor, and I still couldn't cause any damage!
"Attack with more than two Archers, GWG!", you say? Firstly, I was attacking with the Babylonian Bowmen, which in addition to being alliterative, have more strength than a normal archer. Not sure if that applies to making their attacks stronger, but it certainly makes them tougher. Even with that, and a near-death promotion-heal, one archer still managed to get splattered before I could get reinforcements there--a bit of a chore, since I was basically shooting off units to arrive a dozen turns or so in the future, guessing what units would have arrived or died. In older Civilization games, this wouldn't matter, because of unit stacking. I did get backup, though--a Swordsman, some more Bowmen, a Warrior I had one of my little cities build--but they didn't do much except maneuver into position and, in the swordsman's case, get brutally killed after dealing some damage to the city. Which, naturally, got healed within a couple turns.
I got a Great General on the last turn I played (100), which might help. Less helpful: Kamehameha, evidently the second- or third-strongest player, showed up to my doorstep with a Maori warrior embarking (he must have Astronomy), claimed Florence was his sphere of influence despite being next door to me after I allied with it, and declared that he would protect Kathmandu after I was well underway with my "reinforcements" arriving.

In short: Even with as many bonuses as I could find, attacking undefended city-states (cultural city-states, even!) with a couple units not only dooms you to failure, but can't do more damage than the city heals each turn! I wish I was kidding here. Moreover, if the city isn't surrounded by open fields, it's pretty much impossible to get much more than half a dozen units attacking, and apparently damage is rounded down or something because they don't seem to take more than one from attacks, so you'll need about half of that just to overcome the city's healing!
Seriously, why do cities heal so much? And deal so much damage? Stalingrad was impressive, but I don't think it was twice as tough and thrice as good at self-repair as a decent military unit of the time. Especially considering how close they came to losing in a single turn (and how their loss would have been inevitable if Russia hadn't sent in some real units to help).
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Shadowlord

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #605 on: April 19, 2014, 11:37:04 pm »

About the idea that you need to have the same expensive metal in your crossbow bolts to penetrate plate armor... Kinetic energy has a quality all its own. http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/09/episode_61_deadly_straw_primar.html

Even if crossbows were the armor-piercing wonders often claimed, they were not exactly common among peasants (like firearms are in the modern era, in many areas). In fact, I can't think of anywhere that suggested anyone but the military would own a crossbow. After all, normal bows are perfectly good for any kind of non-peasant-uprising shooty stuff a peasant would do; awfully suspicious, neh?
Didn't notice that any peasant could train to use a crossbow in a week or two? You may be aware of England's superior longbow armies. To have them, they required their populace to train with longbows from a young age in order to build their muscles to the point where they would be able to actually use the things in war. It gave them an advantage, to be sure, but it's not like a video game where you can just go from crossbows to longbows without any training and have no issues.

Anyways. I started a game of Civ V to refresh my memory and put some of your tips into practice, but you know how it goes; you're just playing a bit and before you know it it's midnight and you've barely started what you came in to do.
Yeah. That happens if I start reading long forum posts. GOOD LUCK!
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<Dakkan> There are human laws, and then there are laws of physics. I don't bike in the city because of the second.
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Fikes

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #606 on: April 19, 2014, 11:50:26 pm »

I think you need to find yourself a new game GWG. Maybe Starcraft or something.

You send two bowmen against a city state and blame the lack of realism on the fact that you lose. Learn the game or play something more "realisitic" (no idea what... ck2 maybe?)

We have all told you a few times; if you want to take a city bring a mix of units. Infantry with city attack bonus, siege, and archers.

Taking city states is even more sticky... You really have to think hard if the city state is worth it or not. In the vast majority of my games I leave city states alone unless I need their resources badly or Alexander is steamrolling. Attack them means that in the future less will side with you.

Shadowlord

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #607 on: April 20, 2014, 02:16:27 am »

I think he's expecting CivRev.
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<Dakkan> There are human laws, and then there are laws of physics. I don't bike in the city because of the second.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #608 on: April 20, 2014, 08:02:17 am »

Even if crossbows were the armor-piercing wonders often claimed, they were not exactly common among peasants (like firearms are in the modern era, in many areas). In fact, I can't think of anywhere that suggested anyone but the military would own a crossbow. After all, normal bows are perfectly good for any kind of non-peasant-uprising shooty stuff a peasant would do; awfully suspicious, neh?
Didn't notice that any peasant could train to use a crossbow in a week or two? You may be aware of England's superior longbow armies. To have them, they required their populace to train with longbows from a young age in order to build their muscles to the point where they would be able to actually use the things in war. It gave them an advantage, to be sure, but it's not like a video game where you can just go from crossbows to longbows without any training and have no issues.
I love how your "rebuttal" touched on none of my actual points.
Oh wait, no, I don't. It's a pain, and while it presses the same buttons as strawmanning my arguments it technically isn't so I can't call you a strawmanner. However, I do have a conveniently available label for people who make that kind of mistake: "Idiot."

I think you need to find yourself a new game GWG. Maybe Starcraft or something.
You send two bowmen against a city state and blame the lack of realism on the fact that you lose.
Two units of bowmen. Besieging the city for centuries, and making zero impact.

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We have all told you a few times; if you want to take a city bring a mix of units. Infantry with city attack bonus, siege, and archers.
1. I had city attack bonuses.
2. It takes time for an army to get places.
3. Once they get there, other "brilliant" mechanics of Civilization make it a pain to actually do anything with them.
4. Again, you failed to address my actual points. You need more than two bowmen to take a city? Fine, but they should do some damage, and it shouldn't be a royal pain to actually get the units to the city in question.

Quote
Taking city states is even more sticky... You really have to think hard if the city state is worth it or not. In the vast majority of my games I leave city states alone unless I need their resources badly or Alexander is steamrolling. Attack them means that in the future less will side with you.
*shrug* I needed to actually test the mechanics I was complaining about, and I'm the only civilization I've met more than scattered warriors of. I don't know why Napoleon even bothers with that open borders treaty.
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Magistrum

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #609 on: April 20, 2014, 08:38:23 am »

I'll throw in my 2 cents and say GWG just sucks.

I can take over small cities with a single experienced unit.

Using fresh units to capture cities is idiotic. I don't really use melee for damage in sieges before promoting the "march" upgrade to someone.
If I need to capture a city really bad, I put a melee soldier fortified adjacent to the city and 3 archers to damage it until it gets to 1 hp.
Can someone check up how much cities heal per turn? As far I remember they have 20 hp and heal 3 points per turn, and 4 points per turn for capitals, right?
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #610 on: April 20, 2014, 09:21:32 am »

Not sure about capitals (or why city-states would use the base city value), but Kathmandu was healing three HP per turn.

And there are only so many barbarians you can destroy en route to war. How do you propose I level up units I'm sending to war?
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scrdest

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #611 on: April 20, 2014, 09:40:21 am »

By fighting... outside... sieges? I honestly don't see your point here. You are sending them off on a war. Against enemy units. Which give XP. Also, Barracks, Armory and others give XP.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #612 on: April 20, 2014, 09:40:35 am »

Man you are really bad if you can't take a city with 20 dudes. How many ages in technology behind were you? 5? 6?
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Magistrum

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #613 on: April 20, 2014, 09:41:46 am »

Not sure about capitals (or why city-states would use the base city value), but Kathmandu was healing three HP per turn.

And there are only so many barbarians you can destroy en route to war. How do you propose I level up units I'm sending to war?
Barbarians are a nuisance, they only level your units up to 30 experience... I usually expand into someone territory, built wonders they covet an get to be an ass in general, so I can get experience warding off their puny attacks... I rarely kill enemy units with the city bombard.
So the you have it, I usually play on the defensive until the classical era, when I get enough tech or military prowess I attack.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Civilization V
« Reply #614 on: April 20, 2014, 10:47:17 am »

By fighting... outside... sieges? I honestly don't see your point here. You are sending them off on a war. Against enemy units. Which give XP.
It was suggested that I not send inexperienced units to war.
And I can't level up units by killing enemy units when the enemy has no army. Which should also make it absurdly easy to conquer them.

Man you are really bad if you can't take a city with 20 dudes. How many ages in technology behind were you? 5? 6?
I didn't have "20 dudes". I couldn't fit "20 dudes" around that city. And I'm actually ahead in technology.


Anyways, I captured Kathmandu. After more than a dozen further turns of spamming bombard commands against an unguarded city. With several bowmen, a swordsman, a Great General, and assorted other city-attacking bonuses like bowmen with Siege and the Statue of Zeus. I shudder to think about how much worse it would be if I didn't have those bonuses...Sure, I won in the end, but it shouldn't have taken dozens of turns. Especially since the game was on quick speed.
You know, for all that the game seems to be trying to do to reduce unit spam, it's amazing how unit spam is the only way to capture even unguarded cities.
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