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[lordcooper]

In what way are they not equal in the game?

[Rakonas]

So it's based on a D&D CS?  You know that sort of proves my point.  :-|

Women are mechanically identical to men for one reason and one reason alone.  To avoid controversy.  Well ok two reasons.  To avoid controversy, and so they can put hot women in leather bikinis and have them hit things with a gigantic sword.

I wasn't aware you were on the design team. Perhaps the developer had a blog where they noted that they felt having women be useless in combat would good for the game, but they just didn't want the controversy.

I legitimately don't know about leather bikinis, but I suspect you're pulling that one out of your ass as well. Does THE GAME feature those, or are you just assuming that because other media possesses them and/or some players advocate them, that the game automatically features those as well?

I wasn't saying I didn't like the races I was saying that calling something that isn't a human a human is stupid and pointlessly confusing.  But of course since it's D&D it actually normal humans except that women always look like super models (unless they're unimportant or their physical ugliness is an intentional character trait.) but can carry any weapon just as well as a man through shear force of political correctness.

I still don't see what about not making female characters gimped noob-traps enrages you so much that you feel compelled to make it the dividing line between human and so inhuman it's confusing. Are weak females such a defining trait of humanity that they're unrecognizable without them?

Look, it's really simple.  Men are women are not equal in the game any more than they are in any other D&D based setting.  They're just mechanically identical out of lazyness.  And they try to paint it as some sort of stance against sexism and/or some creative idea about a world where human sexes have identical traits and abilities (except women are mind's eye candy) when it is just that they're too lazy to deal with coding in realistic differences and/or don't want to deal with the possible backlash from the ignorant but PC obsessed.

I understand your viewpoint completely, but I'm just going to point out that you sound like an ass.

[rawr359]

I agree with Ioric. I don't know why they're afraid of sexism when they almost encourage racism, but they are so the made the fuck parts the only difference.

[GlyphGryph]

I was about to call Loric out, but then I realized I'm wasting all that time defending a game I actually dislike. (you still sound like an ass, and you're probably one of those people who hate the idea of dwarven women with beards too since "men and wimmens have to be different goddamnit, even if it is a fantasy world with multiple other things that are different from real life but that don't bother me because I don't have insecurities about gender roles in modern society". Maybe I'm completely off base though!)

Then I wrote a whole post about what I disliked about this, but it got long, so I'll trim it down to two short summarized reasons.

No OOC exchange of IC information, even in situations where communicating that information IC is impossible due to the mechanics of the game, such as music, art, and cartography. Mostly because I spent several weeks exploring and drawing my maps, and then found that they'd ban me if I shared them with anyone I'd be banned.

Extremely poor documentation that may have been perfectly good when the game was started but really doesn't tell you things your character needs to know. If I elect to play a character in a certain place, there should be a way to find information out about that place without wandering around like an imbecile despite my character having supposedly lived his whole life there. I'd be fine with this information being contingent upon, say, an approved character background having grown up in that location, but this isn't even an option.

But don't let that stuff stop anyone else from playing the game! It does have a lot of potential for enjoyment, I just found it way to constraining to playing the sort of game and character they want you to play, rather than the one you want to play.

[lordcooper]

GlyphGryph:  I agree with your sentiments on both those points.  I like the "no OOC talk" rule in general, as to me half the fun is in not knowing.  I do wish that there was some way to load images into Armageddon for maps and artwork though.
The documentation is lacking in some places, but there's a lot in there.  The websites got a bit of a shoddy layout and you've got to spend a while searching to actually find some of it though.  I think the main reason some of it is out of date or even not there is that a lot of staff reources are focused on making Arm 2 and it seems a little pointless to put the effort in for writing up docs that won't be relevant in the forseeable future.

[Muz]

No OOC exchange of IC information, even in situations where communicating that information IC is impossible due to the mechanics of the game, such as music, art, and cartography. Mostly because I spent several weeks exploring and drawing my maps, and then found that they'd ban me if I shared them with anyone I'd be banned.

Extremely poor documentation that may have been perfectly good when the game was started but really doesn't tell you things your character needs to know. If I elect to play a character in a certain place, there should be a way to find information out about that place without wandering around like an imbecile despite my character having supposedly lived his whole life there. I'd be fine with this information being contingent upon, say, an approved character background having grown up in that location, but this isn't even an option.

I'd agree with you on both counts. You could actually share the maps, but email the staff on what the best way to do that is. I really do hate the documentation, but a lot of veterans are strongly in the "find out IC or ask a helper" camp. What's worse is when a helper actually gives you the wrong information because he misinterpreted it the same way. IMO, Armageddon is my favorite argument against hiding information from players - it makes the game a lot more elitist.

Yeah, they are putting quite a lot of focus on Arm 2, though, so the documents are mostly placeholders for now. And Ioric's complaints against the races would be gone by then, as they're trying to work it away from the Dark Sun setting. Though if he actually played the game, he'd realize that the female characters in Arm are the furthest thing from being supermodels... anyone who's really hot is probably a 'gicker (witch), a noble, or some assassin/pickpocket trying to get you to pull off your pants before chopping off your wiener

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

No OOC exchange of IC information, even in situations where communicating that information IC is impossible due to the mechanics of the game, such as music, art, and cartography. Mostly because I spent several weeks exploring and drawing my maps, and then found that they'd ban me if I shared them with anyone I'd be banned.

Extremely poor documentation that may have been perfectly good when the game was started but really doesn't tell you things your character needs to know. If I elect to play a character in a certain place, there should be a way to find information out about that place without wandering around like an imbecile despite my character having supposedly lived his whole life there. I'd be fine with this information being contingent upon, say, an approved character background having grown up in that location, but this isn't even an option.

I'd agree with you on both counts. You could actually share the maps, but email the staff on what the best way to do that is. I really do hate the documentation, but a lot of veterans are strongly in the "find out IC or ask a helper" camp. What's worse is when a helper actually gives you the wrong information because he misinterpreted it the same way. IMO, Armageddon is my favorite argument against hiding information from players - it makes the game a lot more elitist.

Yeah, they are putting quite a lot of focus on Arm 2, though, so the documents are mostly placeholders for now. And Ioric's complaints against the races would be gone by then, as they're trying to work it away from the Dark Sun setting. Though if he actually played the game, he'd realize that the female characters in Arm are the furthest thing from being supermodels... anyone who's really hot is probably a 'gicker (witch), a noble, or some assassin/pickpocket trying to get you to pull off your pants before chopping off your wiener

I've played it.  It doesn't have any sort of graphical representation whatsoever, but it is D&D and that means supermodel females.

[Jreengus]

That's interesting logic... You can't actually see them so you assume they have supermodel bodies? I can't recall the last time I saw a character whose description was anything like a supermodel.

[nuker w]

Hmm. I tried to play. Now, don't get me wrong. I'v played quite a few MUD's. But I just can not handle Armageddon's spacing of information. It all bunches together and makes it nigh-impossible to locate important things. So I think i'll stick to HellMOO for now.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

That's interesting logic... You can't actually see them so you assume they have supermodel bodies? I can't recall the last time I saw a character whose description was anything like a supermodel.

It's not like there's no artwork for Dark Sun.  It's is D&D

[Pita]

I've played the game (a long time ago now, though) and supermodel bodies are few and far between (and often by new players).

Roleplaying games, for a multitude of reasons I suppose, tend to result in beautified player characters, and Armageddon isn't an exception. But it happens far less and with less exaggeration since part of the fun of the theme is playing ugly scum.

[Grakelin]

Ioric, I just want to point out that you're completely ignorant. Did you know that women are able to be fencers?

Herp derp, you hate wommenz.

[lordcooper]

If anything, the stereotypical female warrior type person on Arm would generally be wearing cloth or brown leather clothing, complete with bone armor on top.  The cloth or leather clothing would generally consist of big ass boots, plain trousers and a shirt of some description.  They will be missing a tooth or two and probably be quite scarred in an unattractive manner.  They will also codedly smell of dust and sweat pretty much all the time, with the occasional side order of shit, if they've been near the Byn latrines.

I actually started a thread regarding the gender 'issue' on Armageddon forums.  It sparked less debate than I expected, read into that what you will.
Here's the link if you're interested at all.  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40072.msg567367.html#msg567367

[IronyOwl]

That's interesting logic... You can't actually see them so you assume they have supermodel bodies? I can't recall the last time I saw a character whose description was anything like a supermodel.

It's not like there's no artwork for Dark Sun.  It's is D&D

Which edition are you bitching about and please provide examples. My money is on fantasy artwork or artwork by artists that also did D&D stuff.

Ioric, I just want to point out that you're completely ignorant. Did you know that women are able to be fencers?

Herp derp, you hate wommenz.

This really isn't helpful or relevant. C'mon Grakelin.

[MrWiggles]

Most table top RP games have no mechanical difference in genders of races. Its not to avoid sexism, as the gender of the character is an aesthetic choice, much in the matter, weight, eye/hair color. Its not really that deep of a design choice.

I can think of a few game systems which offer mechanical differences between races.

BESM, had some female only special abilities, though there were male counterparts.
BBSW, (NSFW table top RPG), is a sex driven parody game.
FATAL, (NSFW table top RPG), has mechanical differences for various, and mostly of the sex driven reasons. Though, some of the reasons, I can gleam from a detail reading of the FATAL, has has mechanical difference as a way to further differentiate the fantasy races.

But yea, no gender difference mechanic wise, is mostly done as gender is seen and acted in regard to deciding your character hair/eye color. An aesthetic choice.