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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 12995723 times)

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113085 on: November 09, 2016, 07:57:59 pm »

What's more, it's exactly this sort of zero-sum rhetoric that led to Trump getting elected in the first place. Liberal elites really screwed this election up, and have only themselves to blame. It's not surprising that when you spend decades shouting from your graduate-educated pulpit that ensuring dignified, reliable work for blue-collar workers is less important to progressivism than a tiny sliver of the population getting called "xe", then blue-collar workers will turn against you.

And before you go after me claiming that progressivism has never said that- of course it has. Perception is reality in politics, and we would be wise to remember that. Why should some guy in a trailer in Kansas listen to what some critical theory ideologue at Colombia has to say? The latter, though nominally in the business of creating a more just and equitable society, has quite ironically probably caused more social fracturing than s/he's ever prevented. But, hey, at least we've gotten better at challenging white supremacy in pumpkins!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:00:45 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113086 on: November 09, 2016, 07:58:38 pm »

Saying that anyone who supported Trump supports torturing the non-hetero seems about as accurate as saying that anyone who supports Hillary supports trying to quiet or shame sexual assault victims.

I whole heartedly agree.

Besides it is his Vice President that wants to do that, not Trump.
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Silverthrone

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113087 on: November 09, 2016, 08:03:00 pm »

I can't really remember making the point that all Trump supporters, down to the last man, whole-heartedly supports it. I believe my point was that most likely don't, but it would be small comfort nonetheless.
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113088 on: November 09, 2016, 08:04:42 pm »

I can't really remember making the point that all Trump supporters, down to the last man, whole-heartedly supports it. I believe my point was that most likely don't, but it would be small comfort nonetheless.

Well if you want the actual numbers on how many Americans support torture...

Most.

Admitting the question usually used to get that statistic has... flaws.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:06:20 pm by Neonivek »
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pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113089 on: November 09, 2016, 08:08:29 pm »

Torture?  What qualifies as torture, and upon whom is it committed.


I would imagine that punitive suffering not backed by a proven record of conformity qualifies as torture?
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113090 on: November 09, 2016, 08:10:23 pm »

Torture?  What qualifies as torture, and upon whom is it committed

Just torture in general.

"Do you believe there are times where torture is necessary?"
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pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113091 on: November 09, 2016, 08:13:54 pm »

All or nothing questions are bad ways to get a general idea.

Say 'most americans support torture' and using the question 'is there even one situation ever when the use of torture is acceptable' is going to create a bit of a disparity, and likely send a wrong image.
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Silverthrone

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113092 on: November 09, 2016, 08:15:35 pm »

Well, I was more leaning towards the vice president's interests in the homosexual re-education camps, rather than torture in general.

In brief;

No, not every single Trump supporter would support it, particularly not if they were directly asked.

Yes, that is a small comfort for the people in them.

Yes, that might give the people that it affects warranted reasons to be upset and worried.
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113093 on: November 09, 2016, 08:16:28 pm »

Saying that anyone who supported Trump supports torturing the non-hetero seems about as accurate as saying that anyone who supports Hillary supports trying to quiet or shame sexual assault victims.
Good no one actually said that, then.

And good gods, FJ, if what dems have actually been pushing for and doing for those workers isn't shouting from the pulpit the people being yelled at just aren't sodding listening. The blazes do you do when literal generations of bringing and trying to bring aid and improvement to someone leads to them saying you've been ignoring them? Is there anything left besides just straight up lying to them and telling them the impossible is going to happen?
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113094 on: November 09, 2016, 09:14:19 pm »

Saying that anyone who supported Trump supports torturing the non-hetero seems about as accurate as saying that anyone who supports Hillary supports trying to quiet or shame sexual assault victims.
Good no one actually said that, then.

And good gods, FJ, if what dems have actually been pushing for and doing for those workers isn't shouting from the pulpit the people being yelled at just aren't sodding listening. The blazes do you do when literal generations of bringing and trying to bring aid and improvement to someone leads to them saying you've been ignoring them? Is there anything left besides just straight up lying to them and telling them the impossible is going to happen?

You're still looking at this through the lens of a coastal elite.

Remember, American liberalism is more than a political stance- it's a worldview, a way people anchor themselves in the world, key to how people see themselves. It fills, in other words, pretty much exactly the same role for people who believe in it that religion filled until the Enlightenment among the intelligentsia. It's a value system, one with its own doctrine, scripture (Everyday Feminism, critical theory papers) and clergymen (Buzzfeed editors).

If that sounds absurd, remember that I am talking about what a religion does, not what it says it is. In 18th-century America and even more so in the Europe that its inhabitants were fleeing, religion was a package deal. It's not just something you do on Sundays. It dictates your social group, your political leanings, it correlates very strongly with your occupation, the people you consider in- and out-group, and so on and so forth. Modern agnostics can't really wrap our heads around this because our equivalent belief system says it isn't a belief system; but on a societal level, exactly the same analysis applies. How many sociology grad students at Columbia are conservatives? Sure, people who go into sociology tend to be liberals, if it doesn't make them into liberals- but how many Columbia or Yale students were born into white, working-class families in flyover country? Almost certainly fewer than are members of other minorities, like African-Americans or Chinese mainland nationals. Why? Because they have totally different value systems.

Let's, now, bring our analysis back to Jimbo the inbred and misguided trailer dweller. What ideology fills the void that we would like the hallowed dogma of prime-time MSNBC to fill? It's, of course, Evangelical Christianity, though as we saw last night it's in many cases a peculiar and unusually deviant brand that downtones the 'loving your neighbor' nonsense in favor of getting mad at brown people. Nevertheless, it is a value system that does exactly the same for Jimbo and Nevaeh as coastal elite liberalism does for most Bay12ers.

Policies and planks don't exist in vacuums. They come in bundles, aligned with particular worldviews and value systems. There's nothing particularly religious, for example, about banning gay marriage- neither the Soviets nor the CCP are particularly fond of it, for example- but in America, most people who want to reverse Obergefell have a value system that draws more from Southern Baptism than a university's Diversity Council. As a result, being opposed to gay marriage is taken as a tell- because it usually is- that someone belongs to the Red Tribe, and if they are unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of Buzzfeed, or their university's bias policy, or that internet crusade that shut down that pizzeria for possibly not being totally on board with catering an entirely hypothetical gay wedding- then they usually get ostracized.

Likewise, a fondness for labor unions, universal basic income, and OSHA regulations is going to be taken as a shibboleth for being Blue Tribe. Why should Middle America, given the sort of rhetoric that comes out of the coasts, trust that they will be allowed to keep their lifestyles and livelihoods if they just vote for better labor protections? If the mirror experience is any indication, they shouldn't.

Now, you may say, and I agree with you, that coastal liberalism is a much less fucked-up worldview than the chimera that American evangelicalism has become. But the beauty and the terror of democracy is that all worldviews are equal before the magic lever, and no amount of pious hand-wringing about Equality and Progress will stop someone with an axe to grind, a hollowed-out hometown to live in, and nothing to lose. His ballot means as much as yours or mine.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 09:16:27 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Eric Blank

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113095 on: November 09, 2016, 10:04:25 pm »

One of the cats is dead. No idea why, she was perfectly healthy and happy this morning, now she's stone cold, only sign of injury is a tiny amount of blood from the corner of her mouth. Broke her neck or something? Can't tell
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113096 on: November 09, 2016, 10:20:37 pm »

Sounds like poisoning. If someone set out rodenticide and she got a mouse that had eaten it, that can happen.
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113097 on: November 09, 2016, 11:08:41 pm »

Aye. Could be snake bite, maybe, too. Condolences, EB. Sucks to lose a cat, especially suddenly and without warning.

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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113098 on: November 09, 2016, 11:30:51 pm »

What's more, it's exactly this sort of zero-sum rhetoric that led to Trump getting elected in the first place. Liberal elites really screwed this election up, and have only themselves to blame. It's not surprising that when you spend decades shouting from your graduate-educated pulpit that ensuring dignified, reliable work for blue-collar workers is less important to progressivism than a tiny sliver of the population getting called "xe", then blue-collar workers will turn against you.

And before you go after me claiming that progressivism has never said that- of course it has. Perception is reality in politics, and we would be wise to remember that. Why should some guy in a trailer in Kansas listen to what some critical theory ideologue at Colombia has to say? The latter, though nominally in the business of creating a more just and equitable society, has quite ironically probably caused more social fracturing than s/he's ever prevented. But, hey, at least we've gotten better at challenging white supremacy in pumpkins!

They've already doubled down on it. The Clinton-bloc rhetoric and the regressive-left rhetoric is already wheeling all over looking for people to blame, and it's never falling on themselves. They just don't get it. The Left rose on the backs of the working class, and they were taken for granted, their concerns dismissed and scoffed at. This is how you get Trumps.
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Comrade P.

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #113099 on: November 09, 2016, 11:37:42 pm »

At this point I should call Doc Helgoland so he can take y'all to his Asylum for Politically American.

Make WTF Thread Great Again
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