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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 6657118 times)

Doomblade187

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134190 on: May 31, 2018, 01:21:11 pm »

Thank you for clarifying. It's really easy to come off as defending sexism to some people (like me, for example) because other people have used similar lines in the past.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134191 on: May 31, 2018, 01:21:49 pm »

I'm not sure, because if you ever were to bring up any sort of stat for male victims, as a topic in it's own right, it's fairly certain someone butts in with "oh but it's worse for women". Which is ... sort of the same derailment technique. I think it would actually be more likely in terms of frequency that if you brought up male victimization someone would interject with the female side of things, rather than each time female victimization is brought up, someone would interject with the male side of things. e.g. if you bring up rape against females, there's some chance the figures of rape against men would enter the conversation. But if you ever bring up rape against males, then it's far more certain that the figures of rape against women would be brought up. So no, I don't see much evidence that derailment with "what about gender X" goes only one way, or that that way is entirely biased to derailing discussions of female victimization. Female victimization is just brought up as a discussion topic far more often so you notice it more.

I had this conversation the other day btw. it was effectively a god of the gaps tactic. "it only happens to women" => cite evidence it happens to men => "yes, but it happens to women more" => cite evidence it happens to men and women equally => "yes, but it doesn't really affect men when it happens" => cite evidence men are affected => "yes, but women are affected more worser". Now at this stage, it's merely hard to find a good study which shows which gender is more "hurt" (psychologically) by a type of victimization that happens to both equally often so at this point the argument ends. But I have a good idea that if I had such a study handy and showed that, then this person would have had another convenient "yes, but" to say why it matters more when it happens to their preferred gender vs the other gender.

Always "yes, but". This sort of thing is pure confirmation bias from the other side.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 01:37:10 pm by Reelya »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134192 on: May 31, 2018, 01:35:25 pm »

From personal experience, this is quite true. It is extremely frustrating to be told that the sexual harassment you have experienced "doesn't count" because you are a guy, and "guys get harassed so rarely that we can pretend it doesn't exist".
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Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134193 on: May 31, 2018, 01:44:12 pm »

Damascus goats are pretty neat. I'm also a fan of Jacobs sheep.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134194 on: May 31, 2018, 01:50:32 pm »

From personal experience, this is quite true. It is extremely frustrating to be told that the sexual harassment you have experienced "doesn't count" because you are a guy, and "guys get harassed so rarely that we can pretend it doesn't exist".

Yeah, i mean if you look at the figures, here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States

Quote
81% or eight out of 10 students experience sexual harassment in school
83% of girls have been sexually harassed
78% of boys have been sexually harassed

That speaks for itself. Virtually everyone reports some amount of sexual harassment. However, if 78% of boys are saying they're sexually harassed you can read that two ways: either virtually the entire school is being sexually harassed, or the definition of harassment used was extremely broad.

But they almost always only cite the female victim data in the summaries for these types of reports, so if they used an excessively broad definition, then the only logical explanation as to why is that it was deliberate in order to maximize the apparent number of female victims, knowing that they could merely fail to mention the male results later.

So they almost certainly use an extremely loose definition, and then only reported this as "83% of highschool girls report being sexually harassed", without citing any male figures. These two things combined leave you with the desired impression: that all girls are the victims of all boys.

And that's not an outlier. The above survey was by AAUW (American Association of University Women) at middle schools in 2000, and their figures for colleges in 2006 read:

Quote
62% of female college students and 61% of male college students report having been sexually harassed at their university.
Again, when you apply identical methodology to male and female students you get virtual indistinguishable results. There's little excuse for only reporting on the female survey results for these particular types of studies. It's misleading at best, and deliberate academic fraud at worst.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:18:02 pm by Reelya »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134195 on: May 31, 2018, 01:55:03 pm »

When I was in highschool, at least, any male complaints about sexual harassment (at least, the male-on-male variety that I was subjected to) was ignored, and the people who were being groped were told "They're trying to creep you out. Just play along and they will get creeped out instead." This was in the early 00s.

In the workplace, the female-on-male harassment I've had to deal with has either been laughed at, or else had the woman in question simply told "stop doing that" with no write-up, as opposed to the immediate termination male-on-female harassers are subjected to. Note that most places I've had this problem at have surveliance cameras, so there was usually solid proof instead of "he-said/she-said" in both situations outside of the bathrooms.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134196 on: May 31, 2018, 02:07:38 pm »

AH YES. THE ADORABLE DAMASCUS GOAT
Such majesty!
SUCH GRACE!
The people of Damascus appear to have high proclivity towards folding things unto themselves. These goats must have been folded at least gorillion times. I bet they can cut a tank in half.
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Dozeb˘m Lolumzalýs

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134197 on: May 31, 2018, 02:10:23 pm »

Damascus goats are pretty neat. I'm also a fan of Jacobs sheep.
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Anyway, about the whole "can women be sexist" issue, I think the problem is that sexism isn't firmly defined and so people can bailey-and-motte it. Is sexism prejudiced beliefs about sex? Or is it harmful actions toward people based on their sex? (this line of thought heavily influenced by Against Murderism)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:14:11 pm by Dozeb˘m Lolumzalýs »
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Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134198 on: May 31, 2018, 02:23:32 pm »

Relic is apparently still trying to push sales of Dawn of War III. A game which they have previously stated that they're stopping the development of, because gamers were being uncooperative and didn't buy lots of copies.

There's a new cosmetic skin for something or other, so it's probably worth it now.

pikachu17

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134199 on: May 31, 2018, 02:36:06 pm »

Something is sexist simply when someone is treated differently because of their sex(except the extremely few cases in which there actually is an important difference, such as keeping pregnant women out of dangerous professions.) which includes but is not limited to prejudiced beliefs about sex, and harmful actions against people because of their sex.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:38:07 pm by pikachu17 »
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Akura

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134200 on: May 31, 2018, 03:41:50 pm »

Relic is apparently still trying to push sales of Dawn of War III. A game which they have previously stated that they're stopping the development of, because gamers were being uncooperative and didn't buy lots of copies.

There's a new cosmetic skin for something or other, so it's probably worth it now.

Eh, it's a Warhammer in general sale. Picked up Blood Bowl 2, having a blast.

When I was in highschool, at least, any male complaints about sexual harassment (at least, the male-on-male variety that I was subjected to) was ignored, and the people who were being groped were told "They're trying to creep you out. Just play along and they will get creeped out instead." This was in the early 00s.

In the workplace, the female-on-male harassment I've had to deal with has either been laughed at, or else had the woman in question simply told "stop doing that" with no write-up, as opposed to the immediate termination male-on-female harassers are subjected to. Note that most places I've had this problem at have surveliance cameras, so there was usually solid proof instead of "he-said/she-said" in both situations outside of the bathrooms.
*something something, college I worked at helped fabricate then cover up male-on-female harassment claim*
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134201 on: May 31, 2018, 06:12:48 pm »

I used to have more interesting things to say. I wonder if that is a symptom of my worsening unknown mental problem that I missed. Decreased creativity and eloquence.
I'm pretty sure you still say a fair amount of interesting stuff, I just don't hunt for OOCQ material as much as I used to.
Come to think of it, I don't post nearly as much as I used to in general, either.  :-\
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134202 on: May 31, 2018, 07:28:09 pm »

*something something, college I worked at helped fabricate then cover up male-on-female harassment claim*

???

Is that a reference to something you've told before, or is it a comment on what I had to say?
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134203 on: May 31, 2018, 07:42:38 pm »

Something they've told before.
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Dozeb˘m Lolumzalýs

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134204 on: May 31, 2018, 09:49:13 pm »

Something is sexist simply when someone is treated differently because of their sex(except the extremely few cases in which there actually is an important difference, such as keeping pregnant women out of dangerous professions.) which includes but is not limited to prejudiced beliefs about sex, and harmful actions against people because of their sex.
I think that goes too far. We want to keep the negative connotation of sexism, right? (I hope we do, because there's no way to change it!) I don't think that we should say that it's bad to not completely ignore sex. It still carries some statistical information. People tend to overestimate the information it gives you (it's probabilistic, nothing more), but it doesn't give literally zero information.

Also, dammit, I came back here trying to avoid the failed/uncomfortable sexuality/gender thread issues and here I am doing the same thing that caused me to start the original thread. (It was a derail and I made a separate thread to hold the derail.) Eh. Let's just not entirely derail the thread. (Since the WTF was specifically about sexism, we're not derailing yet! Technically!)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 09:51:46 pm by Dozeb˘m Lolumzalýs »
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