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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 6970411 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134235 on: June 02, 2018, 12:14:56 am »

Many people have no business putting their things on steam despite being able to scrape together $100.
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milo christiansen

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134236 on: June 02, 2018, 12:17:47 am »

That too. Ever browse the list of games for less than $0.50? shudder
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134237 on: June 02, 2018, 03:07:52 am »

Steam recently removed a game, Active Shooter, where you could play as an active school shooter. What I want to know is how the hell it got on Steam in the first place so that it needed to be removed.

It's still better this way. $100 gets you an automatic game listing. 7000 games go up on Steam per year.

By not checking out each game that goes up, Steam is using an implicit trust system - they don't go and check out each game, and rely on player feedback to root out the bad ones. However, it's unarguably better to leave that to the consumers to decide on.

If Steam had to check everything out before it's launched for content violations then they'd have to expend a significant amount of money paying people just to play games. And of course that creates a chance for devs to get pissed off and for politics to creep in. For example, if some hardcore SJW person worked at Steam as a game reviewer, played your game and refused your application to launch the game because they didn't like how a black character talked or that a white guy had a sombrero (cultural appropriation). You'd have politics playing into who reviewed what, for sure, as well as drawn out social media battles between left and right over the validity of the Steam approval process with some calling it alt-right-Nazi because some Visual Novel with sexy girls got approved, and some calling it SJW-cuck, because some game with a questionable racial stereotype didn't: regardless of why it was actually not approved. That could easily happen and it would be a huge headache for Steam, who would be caught in the middle of all that.

It's just much cheaper for everyone and less headache for Steam if they let people create whatever they want then let the market decide if any one piece is acceptable, or not.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 03:30:53 am by Reelya »
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Jopax

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134238 on: June 02, 2018, 03:29:32 am »

But you don't need to spend 10 hours on checking each game. In the vast majority of the cases you can see it's a shitshow and not worth anyones time, let alone money within minutes. Similarly if the game does look like actual work was put into it then you just need to check the minimal functionality of the product, which again shouldn't take 10 hours, the rest should be on the developer.

Steam doesn't need to be running a full Q&A team for every title they sell, but they should be running the barest fucking minimum of Q&A so that they don't sell any piece of shit software whose owner had a 100$ laying about.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134239 on: June 02, 2018, 03:31:34 am »

I think you're underestimating how much that would cost and how long it would take. Every single game concept and execution would in fact need to be run passed the legal department. If a single steam employee just glanced at the game as said "god no, we won't approve a game called Active Shooter" then what sort of crappy "approvals" system would that be? It would be a complete crapshoot, since one reviewer might not have a problem with that, while another would. So you could just re-submit the game and cross your fingers that you get a different guy this time. If they're keeping any sort of per-game records to prevent people just doing that, then it would end up as mountains of paperwork, not a quick glance at each game.

Also the legal and PR implications of taking responsibility that way, and the PR implications of having an approved/disapproved system and how that would play out with social media battles over which games did and didn't get approved.

EDIT: "We played it for three minutes" isn't any sort of approvals process, and you could face legal liability then. Being able to say "we don't control what goes up" is in fact a good defense against being sued for a game containing something like a racist caricature at the 10-hours-in mark.

EDIT2: Imagine a hypothetical situation where the game flashes up child porn at 11 hours, but your budget and rules only specify that you test each game for 10 hours. Every dev would learn the 10-hour limit, and malicious devs could work out how to exploit the approvals process to slip things by the Steam censors. And some asshole would just for the lulz of what they managed to slip passed the Steam game approvers. Then, since it's "Steam approved" making the company legally liable becomes a more plausible court case.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 03:44:12 am by Reelya »
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George_Chickens

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134240 on: June 02, 2018, 03:32:04 am »

Steam recently removed a game, Active Shooter, where you could play as an active school shooter. What I want to know is how the hell it got on Steam in the first place so that it needed to be removed.
It wasn't the content (nor should it be) that got it banned. It was found to be made by an alt account of a content stealing upload troll who was banned for scamming, so he was re-banned and all of his games removed.
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Jopax

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134241 on: June 02, 2018, 04:06:28 am »

Yeah, I'm not buying that "We don't give a shit what goes onto our storefront" is a better defense in any way than "We're sorry a turd slipped past our censors"

Because over time (and it started happening already) people will lose faith in the system, you already have indie devs jumping ship and refusing to sell on Steam because it's just not worth the time and effort only to get drowned in hundreds of asset flips and things that barely qualify as games.

And let's be honest here, Valve does have the cash for this shit, however expensive it might be, they do have the money to foot the bill. The only reason they haven't done so is because they have a monopoly on digital distribution, but sooner or later people will get fed up with this shit and jump ship, even if it means missing out on some games. What happens then? Will they finally start actually curating the shit that gets submitted? If they do, I have a feeling it'll be too little, too late because once you've lost the faith of the consumer (as well as the publisher selling trough your platform) that shit is very hard to win back, and not cheap either.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134242 on: June 02, 2018, 05:04:09 am »

I think you're missing out how much that would completely kill indie devs. For that, they'd have to have a Nintendo-like approvals process so only the largest say 70% of projects would even get into the pipeline. The occasional Active Shooter is worth it to allow hundreds of other small devs to make stuff that's not offensive.

Sure, the cost might not be too much higher than the $100, but reviewers are finite in number and ability, so they'd need to set marketing pricing for applications, to throttle the amount of applicants down to a level that they can cope with. So, even if the "actual" cost of approvals becomes only $300, they'd need to charge maybe $1000 per game, just to whittle down the applicants in the pipeline to a manageable level. And that's not the cost to launch the game, it's only the cost to have Steam's censors go over it and give it a yes/no approval. You won't get that money back if they don't like your game, because that would unfairly push the costs of checking your game out onto all other games.

Active Shooter didn't even make it to the point at which it could be sold remember, so ... system working fine.

And think what you're asking for there ... corporate censorship so that "problematic" things disappear before we the public can hear about them. That's a very dangerous route to advocate.

EDIT: Especially when Active Shooter's main fault is that it's conceptually problematic. Do we ban games in which you can choose to play the Arab side like Battlefield, because people could use that as a "terrorist simulator" or games where you can play a Nazi? How about Postal? Grand Theft Auto? What's even the criteria here? Then, remember that people would start petitioning Steam to remove or block things because they disagree with their sexual mores - the entire gamut of sexual mores. So Steam would turn into the World Police for sexuality in games, trying to balance the Christian Right on one side vs SJWs on the other side, both wanting to change the rules on how games are approved so that ones with too much gay/straight/cisgender/transgender/loli/big-boobs etc etc etc are blocked, depending on who's doing the asking.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 05:34:15 am by Reelya »
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Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134243 on: June 02, 2018, 05:37:44 am »

Actually, Active Shooter's main fault is that it's a steaming pile of asset-ripped shit in a mostly unplayable and completely unenjoyable packaging.

Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134244 on: June 02, 2018, 05:41:12 am »

That's really it, the game's been pulled because the guy making it is a known troll.

The idea that it should have been blocked immediately because people don't like the concept is in fact scary when you actually consider the broader ramifications of that. All games would be subject to that scrutiny, and if Steam is vigilant-enough to block Active Shooter for being "insensitive" then let's just say lots of very popular games wouldn't be on Steam to start with.

I got Neko Neko Paradise in a humble bundle, and if Steam had a "remove anything questionable" approvals policy, that game flat out wouldn't be on Steam to start with. Such a policy always ends with the company being more sensitive to potential controversy than any actual living human, because they're always going to be assuming that someone will get offended.

And who decides? Imagine a hypothetical game starring a gay character that 40% of America (Conservatives Christians) find "insensitive". Then, how about some game starring a stereotyped female character that 20% of Americans say they find "insensitive"? Do we tell both groups, or neither, just to "get over it" or do we kowtow to one group and not the other, and if so, on what basis?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 05:56:41 am by Reelya »
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Jopax

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134245 on: June 02, 2018, 06:41:00 am »

Ok, I think the issue here is that I'm talking about quality control, not content control which seems to be your sticking point. A dev can do whatever controversial subject they want as far as I'm concerned since games imo are an art medium, as such the only limitations on content would probably be age gating the shit or removing bits if you want to sell it in certain countries (for example nazis being an issue in germany).

In the case of what I'm advocating is a Q&A team running trough a game in short order to verify that it is in fact a playable piece of software that delivers the features its selling to people. That it's not an achievement or card farming asset flip that took no effort to make or an outright scam that's selling itself as a full title when it has a single functional level. And the volume of work would be large at first, but that's again on valve because they allowed this to happen in the first place, once people realise they're throwing money at valve only to get their turd of code rejected I'm fairly certain most of them will stop. At which point you'll be left mostly with serious applicants with actual games that they're trying to sell.

Another thing, what exactly is the current 100$ entry fee for? Buying a spot on the storefront? Doesn't the 30-ish % cut valve takes from every sale cover that part already? It's clearly not working as a deterrent against shit games flooding the marketplace, so what exactly is its purpose?
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134246 on: June 02, 2018, 06:44:27 am »

Em... they get more money? Seems like all the purpose they'd need.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134247 on: June 02, 2018, 06:52:34 am »


Another thing, what exactly is the current 100$ entry fee for? Buying a spot on the storefront? Doesn't the 30-ish % cut valve takes from every sale cover that part already? It's clearly not working as a deterrent against shit games flooding the marketplace, so what exactly is its purpose?

It is a deterrent, you just can't see that because you can't prove a negative.

If it was $1, then the same troll dev could upload 100 variations of the same thing for his $100, with different names and cover-art, on the hope that one of them "sticks" or that some people are suckered into buying more than one version of the same thing (e.g. people who buy a lot of games then don't get around to playing them all). The economic risk of it would be lessened, since you'd only need to make back $1 per version, not $100.

Plus ... for every $100 troll there are hundreds of wanna-be trolls who just aren't willing to shell out the $100.

With the $100 limit, Valve needs to stamp out the occasional brushfire like Active Shooter, but with a lower limit, or being able to upload games for free, such things would be cropping up much more frequently.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 06:58:47 am by Reelya »
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134248 on: June 02, 2018, 06:52:45 am »

I got Neko Neko Paradise in a humble bundle, and if Steam had a "remove anything questionable" approvals policy, that game flat out wouldn't be on Steam to start with. Such a policy always ends with the company being more sensitive to potential controversy than any actual living human, because they're always going to be assuming that someone will get offended.
Ironically, they already tried to remove that


Another thing, what exactly is the current 100$ entry fee for? Buying a spot on the storefront? Doesn't the 30-ish % cut valve takes from every sale cover that part already? It's clearly not working as a deterrent against shit games flooding the marketplace, so what exactly is its purpose?

It is a deterrent, you just can't see that because you can't prove a negative.

If it was $1, then the same troll dev could upload 100 variations of the same thing for his $100. Plus ... for every $100 troll there are hundreds of wanna-be trolls who just aren't willing to shell out the $100.
Thing is, before there was steam direct there was a fee plus greenlight. This system resulted in a lot of shitty games appearing on steam. Now it's just the fee, and because of this the problem is now getting worse.



Truthfully, I think Valve is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Someone earlier in this thread said that 7000 new games appear on steam every year. 7000x100 = $700,000 dollars per year. That's a lot of money. If Valve decided to implement actual working policies that prevented scammers from paying the $100 to get on steam, they would lose a huge(I'm talking more than %60) chunk of that revenue. So they let them do it. Valve will do the occasional bit of moral posturing and pretend they're doing something about it, while ultimately doing nothing.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 07:09:50 am by heydude6 »
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #134249 on: June 02, 2018, 07:12:47 am »

Quote
Truthfully, I think Valve is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Someone earlier in this thread said that 7000 new games appear on steam every year. 7000x100 = $700,000 dollars per year. That's a lot of money.

$700,000 is not a lot of money. It's fuck-all money. $700k per year doesn't in fact pay that many wages especially when you account for overheads. e.g. it's only 20 times $35k or 7 times $100k. So those are the theoretical limits of how many people you could pay at the entry level / specialist level for that money.

If they really only did this for money then the amount would be much higher. e.g. with many multi-million dollar budget games out there they could have demanded $10,000 per listing and they'd only need 70 projects to trump up that money.

Also, however, remember that if your game makes $1000 or more, you get your $100 back. And what percentage of games that paid the $100 don't hit the $1000? Maybe 1000 are bogus, so won't make $1000, so won't get their money back, meaning Steam pockets $100,000. Enough to pay for 1-2, at most, additional employees for a year. No, it doesn't make any sense that this rule is there as a money-maker since it doesn't really make much money for Steam at all.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 07:55:09 am by Reelya »
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