Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 9812 9813 [9814] 9815 9816 ... 10106

Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 6961001 times)

pisskop

  • Bay Watcher
  • Yarr Harr Fiddldy Dee
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147195 on: September 17, 2019, 01:47:58 pm »

Alright, you heard the lady, square up in the center now.  I want a clean fight: keep it above the waist and below the limit.  When I come forward, you back off, and when you hear the bell you stop and go back to your corner.  We all abide, we all leave richer and happier, capisce?
Logged
Pisskop's Reblancing Mod - A C:DDA Mod to make life a little (lot) more brutal!
drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
PKs DF Mod!

Tack

  • Bay Watcher
  • Be so old that people find intolerance charming
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147196 on: September 17, 2019, 01:53:33 pm »

Yeah covenants and wombs feel like they’ve been added later in order to twist it.

That being said “and satisfaction brought it back” is said to have been in the original as well.
Logged
Sentience, Endurance, and Thumbs: The Trifector of a Superpredator.
Yeah, he's a banned spammer. Normally we'd delete this thread too, but people were having too much fun with it by the time we got here.
Bay 12 Blood Bowl I apparently host now.

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147197 on: September 17, 2019, 02:06:19 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.

That specific phrasing is modern, yes, but the "blood means blood brothers" interpretation is referenced in The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture from 1893, in reference to the Arabic variation that holds that blood is thicker than (maternal) milk.

It's certainly not about bloodshed in any event, but the idea of deliberate blood covenants as a stronger bond than family (specifically siblinghood) considerably predates the 1970s -- and blood oaths themselves are old as all get out.

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.


"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.
I did not know this. Thus is interesting. I wonder what other phrases we inadvertently switched the meanings of?

There are a whole bunch of them which is usually repeated along with the above one whenever they come up (because they're mentioned in a common repost of a screenshot of a Tumblr discussion) , but as far as I know most of them are myths too.
Logged
Love, scriver~

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147198 on: September 17, 2019, 02:17:36 pm »

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.
Are you deliberately ignoring Trekkin's reference?
Logged

Mephisto

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147199 on: September 17, 2019, 02:19:12 pm »

It's all a lie anyway. The saying was originally a shibboleth that allowed ancient vampires to find one another.
Logged

Th4DwArfY1

  • Bay Watcher
  • Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147200 on: September 17, 2019, 02:20:33 pm »

Yes.... past tense....
Logged
Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination
  Th4DwArfY1 has claimed the title of Penblessed the Endless Fountain of Epics!
Sigtext!
Poetry Thread

Trekkin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147201 on: September 17, 2019, 02:26:07 pm »

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.
Are you deliberately ignoring Trekkin's reference?

To be fair to him, I didn't actually explain the siblinghood in question: apparently two children who nursed from the same person were considered to be related as though siblings, at least insofar as establishing familial relationships for the purpose of avoiding incestuous marriages. (Although on page 12 it says they considered blood brotherhood to supersede brotherhood through common descent, I'm not seeing a source for it.)

What really bugs me about the other way around, though, is that I'm not aware of any other reference to water as a proxy for friendship in the way blood signifies family ties. "The water of the womb" as amniotic fluid makes some sense (we do speak of a pregnant person's 'water' breaking, for example), but what kind of water do you proverbially share with friends? There are references to 12th-century German poems in which blood ties are asserted not to be ruined by seawater (that is, distance) but this says nothing of thickness, covenants, or friends.

Absent any indication that water meant friendship, I'm inclined to think the Arabic version just got ported over and translated for people without this concept of milk-based siblinghood.

EDIT: The timeline would also make sense if you credit that the "El-A'asha" credited with it in the text is Maymun Ibn Qays Al-a'sha, who died in 625.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 02:31:55 pm by Trekkin »
Logged

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147202 on: September 17, 2019, 02:51:15 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.

That specific phrasing is modern, yes, but the "blood means blood brothers" interpretation is referenced in The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture from 1893, in reference to the Arabic variation that holds that blood is thicker than (maternal) milk.

It's certainly not about bloodshed in any event, but the idea of deliberate blood covenants as a stronger bond than family (specifically siblinghood) considerably predates the 1970s -- and blood oaths themselves are old as all get out.


While this is an older reference than I've seen before, the more common variation dates back at least as far as the German work Reinhart Fuchs in the 1100s, with no apparent connection to the Arabic variation. As scriver states, the traditional blood brotherhood and similar rites were "make us family where we were not before", indicating that family ties were never ranked below other ties as the modern "water of the womb" quote implies.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Naturegirl1999

  • Bay Watcher
  • Thank you TamerVirus for the avatar switcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147203 on: September 17, 2019, 03:12:51 pm »

So some have changed its meaning. It seems like some are trying to give the idea that a covenant is more powerful than family. Curious
Logged

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147204 on: September 17, 2019, 03:14:56 pm »

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.
Are you deliberately ignoring Trekkin's reference?

Yes. It's not the same saying to begin with (it's not even related), and it's not relevant to the part I'm responding to either.
Logged
Love, scriver~

Naxza

  • Bay Watcher
  • Wanderer of Broken Worlds
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147205 on: September 17, 2019, 03:18:49 pm »

I was just assigned homework.

A ten minute presentation.

For a job interview, a session to last 3-5 hours (with other interviewees), for a tier 1 job, that the recruiter has me pegged for at less than I was making at my old job, wherein the manager of the department, who lives in Europe, is flying out to attend and lead.

Presentation to be submitted the day prior to the interview.

Am I right to be finding this to be really frigging weird? Is this the future of the jobseek?
Logged

Naturegirl1999

  • Bay Watcher
  • Thank you TamerVirus for the avatar switcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147206 on: September 17, 2019, 03:28:22 pm »

Yes it is weird. However it could very well be the future of jobseek. I worked at Casey’s before and wanted to transfer. Manager 1 told me to get Manager 2 to call her. I talked with Manager 2 and he told me to fill out transfer application online, which I did when I got home. I never heard back. There are many Help Wanted signs at Casey’s 2. I worked at Casey’s 1 for ~6 months in the kitchen. I have a visual impairment, despite it, I was still able to do the tasks. I don’t think Manager 2 wanted to have a person with one working eye working there, even though I am able to do what I need to do. I received training and can do what is needed. I can learn training for other positions too, if Manager 2 would give me a chance. It’s a shame one can’t apply in person anymore or maybe a mini interview or something. Manager 2 didn’t ask much about what I did in my previous job.
Logged

Trekkin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147207 on: September 17, 2019, 03:35:48 pm »

While this is an older reference than I've seen before, the more common variation dates back at least as far as the German work Reinhart Fuchs in the 1100s, with no apparent connection to the Arabic variation. As scriver states, the traditional blood brotherhood and similar rites were "make us family where we were not before", indicating that family ties were never ranked below other ties as the modern "water of the womb" quote implies.

I'm aware of the Reinhart Fuchs quote, but I have trouble crediting that as the origin when it's not saying or meaning the same thing. The translation of the quote is "I also hear it said, kin-blood is not spoiled by water," where the water in question is literal seawater. There's no comparison of either viscosity or the relative strength of friendships and blood relationships implied, so if that's the origin, we've got to somehow get from "we still care about family even when we're oceans apart" to "family matter more than friends" while also changing the literal text of the proverb.

The Arabic origin, on the other hand, is referring to Raḍāʿ as opposed to blood covenants and explicitly contrasting the two -- which makes sense. Raḍāʿ is the term for an idea predating Islam that breastfeeding produces a form of consanguinity, and under Islamic jurisprudence it prevents marriages in the same way. It also had some of the same political implications we might recognize from arranged marriage, and in much the same way, the relationship is established before the participants have any say in it. "Blood is thicker than milk," then, would seem to be saying that people care more about the people with whom they choose to associate than those with whom they are bound under this sort of arranged consanguinity -- and that makes sense as a description of human behavior if not as a prescriptive ranking of the importance of different relationships. I'd probably care more about my friends than my arranged milk siblings too, if I had any. Moreover, it's closer to the modern saying both literally and in meaning.

EDIT: I also can't find any reference to the "friends vs family" meaning earlier than the 1600s, and the "Qamus" my souce upthread refers to as the source of the Arabic version is probably the Al-Qāmūs al-Muḥīṭ, an Arabic dictionary compiled from even older works by al-Fayrūzābādī (1329–1414.)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 03:42:59 pm by Trekkin »
Logged

Iduno

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147208 on: September 17, 2019, 03:38:41 pm »

I was just assigned homework.

A ten minute presentation.

For a job interview, a session to last 3-5 hours (with other interviewees), for a tier 1 job, that the recruiter has me pegged for at less than I was making at my old job, wherein the manager of the department, who lives in Europe, is flying out to attend and lead.

Presentation to be submitted the day prior to the interview.

Am I right to be finding this to be really frigging weird? Is this the future of the jobseek?

Well, better luck on the next job. See if you can get them to wait for you by claiming "you're just a bit late." They're wasting your time, so no reason not to return the favor, and hopefully they'll waste a few hours before realizing you aren't coming.
Logged
No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality

Doomblade187

  • Bay Watcher
  • Requires music to get through the working day.
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147209 on: September 17, 2019, 03:55:09 pm »

That is very odd, Nazca, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Unless, of course, they were being super dickish.
Logged
In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.
Pages: 1 ... 9812 9813 [9814] 9815 9816 ... 10106