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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 5966683 times)

pikachu17

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147195 on: September 17, 2019, 12:33:14 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

Naturegirl1999

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147196 on: September 17, 2019, 12:35:38 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.
I did not know this. Thus is interesting. I wonder what other phrases we inadvertently switched the meanings of?

Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147197 on: September 17, 2019, 12:48:35 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.
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Trekkin

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147198 on: September 17, 2019, 01:07:07 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.

That specific phrasing is modern, yes, but the "blood means blood brothers" interpretation is referenced in The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture from 1893, in reference to the Arabic variation that holds that blood is thicker than (maternal) milk.

It's certainly not about bloodshed in any event, but the idea of deliberate blood covenants as a stronger bond than family (specifically siblinghood) considerably predates the 1970s -- and blood oaths themselves are old as all get out.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 01:11:03 pm by Trekkin »
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147199 on: September 17, 2019, 01:11:25 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.

That specific phrasing is modern, yes, but the "blood means blood brothers" interpretation is referenced in The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture from 1893, in reference to the Arabic variation that holds that blood is thicker than (maternal) milk.

It's certainly not about bloodshed in any event, but the idea of deliberate blood covenants as a stronger bond than family (specifically siblinghood) considerably predates the 1970s -- and blood oaths themselves are old as all get out.
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pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147200 on: September 17, 2019, 01:47:58 pm »

Alright, you heard the lady, square up in the center now.  I want a clean fight: keep it above the waist and below the limit.  When I come forward, you back off, and when you hear the bell you stop and go back to your corner.  We all abide, we all leave richer and happier, capisce?
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Tack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147201 on: September 17, 2019, 01:53:33 pm »

Yeah covenants and wombs feel like they’ve been added later in order to twist it.

That being said “and satisfaction brought it back” is said to have been in the original as well.
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147202 on: September 17, 2019, 02:06:19 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.

That specific phrasing is modern, yes, but the "blood means blood brothers" interpretation is referenced in The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture from 1893, in reference to the Arabic variation that holds that blood is thicker than (maternal) milk.

It's certainly not about bloodshed in any event, but the idea of deliberate blood covenants as a stronger bond than family (specifically siblinghood) considerably predates the 1970s -- and blood oaths themselves are old as all get out.

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.


"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.
I did not know this. Thus is interesting. I wonder what other phrases we inadvertently switched the meanings of?

There are a whole bunch of them which is usually repeated along with the above one whenever they come up (because they're mentioned in a common repost of a screenshot of a Tumblr discussion) , but as far as I know most of them are myths too.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147203 on: September 17, 2019, 02:17:36 pm »

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.
Are you deliberately ignoring Trekkin's reference?
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Mephisto

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147204 on: September 17, 2019, 02:19:12 pm »

It's all a lie anyway. The saying was originally a shibboleth that allowed ancient vampires to find one another.
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Th4DwArfY1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147205 on: September 17, 2019, 02:20:33 pm »

Yes.... past tense....
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Trekkin

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147206 on: September 17, 2019, 02:26:07 pm »

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.
Are you deliberately ignoring Trekkin's reference?

To be fair to him, I didn't actually explain the siblinghood in question: apparently two children who nursed from the same person were considered to be related as though siblings, at least insofar as establishing familial relationships for the purpose of avoiding incestuous marriages. (Although on page 12 it says they considered blood brotherhood to supersede brotherhood through common descent, I'm not seeing a source for it.)

What really bugs me about the other way around, though, is that I'm not aware of any other reference to water as a proxy for friendship in the way blood signifies family ties. "The water of the womb" as amniotic fluid makes some sense (we do speak of a pregnant person's 'water' breaking, for example), but what kind of water do you proverbially share with friends? There are references to 12th-century German poems in which blood ties are asserted not to be ruined by seawater (that is, distance) but this says nothing of thickness, covenants, or friends.

Absent any indication that water meant friendship, I'm inclined to think the Arabic version just got ported over and translated for people without this concept of milk-based siblinghood.

EDIT: The timeline would also make sense if you credit that the "El-A'asha" credited with it in the text is Maymun Ibn Qays Al-a'sha, who died in 625.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 02:31:55 pm by Trekkin »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147207 on: September 17, 2019, 02:51:15 pm »

"Blood is thicker than water" comes from the phrase "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb" which means the exact opposite.
It actually means that blood shed in battle bonds soldiers more strongly than simple genetics.

This is a modern myth. The phrase "Blood is thicker than water" predates modern English, while the "water of the womb" variation dates back to the 1970s at the earliest.

That specific phrasing is modern, yes, but the "blood means blood brothers" interpretation is referenced in The Blood Covenant - A Primitive Rite And Its Bearings On Scripture from 1893, in reference to the Arabic variation that holds that blood is thicker than (maternal) milk.

It's certainly not about bloodshed in any event, but the idea of deliberate blood covenants as a stronger bond than family (specifically siblinghood) considerably predates the 1970s -- and blood oaths themselves are old as all get out.


While this is an older reference than I've seen before, the more common variation dates back at least as far as the German work Reinhart Fuchs in the 1100s, with no apparent connection to the Arabic variation. As scriver states, the traditional blood brotherhood and similar rites were "make us family where we were not before", indicating that family ties were never ranked below other ties as the modern "water of the womb" quote implies.
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147208 on: September 17, 2019, 03:12:51 pm »

So some have changed its meaning. It seems like some are trying to give the idea that a covenant is more powerful than family. Curious

scriver

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147209 on: September 17, 2019, 03:14:56 pm »

Blood covenants have never been considered stronger than family (blood) bonds. The entire point of a blood covenant is to share blood - to become as family, because just like your family's blood runs through your veins by birth, your covenant-brother's blood now runs through your veins too.
Are you deliberately ignoring Trekkin's reference?

Yes. It's not the same saying to begin with (it's not even related), and it's not relevant to the part I'm responding to either.
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