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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 6687571 times)

dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147315 on: September 26, 2019, 08:06:08 am »

Um yeah so you can just rent harddrive space, like dropbox. Physical limitations are a really good point. The whole market strategy and narrative is only an odious attempt to preserve the kind of profit margins that were allowing these places to run in the first place when technical limitations were different allowing them to bar normal people from ownership.
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scourge728

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147316 on: September 26, 2019, 08:07:45 am »

Here's a shocking idea: Just uninstall games you've beaten or otherwise do not plan to play anytime soon, and then use that space to install the ones you do want

Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147317 on: September 26, 2019, 08:08:17 am »

Well if you download a game then play only part of it, the actual distribution costs are almost identical. So owning the whole thing isn't sufficiently different in costs to "rental". There is going to be so much content that's re-used between sections in the typical game. You may as well just have digital rights to the entire game, and only have it installed when you want. A big thing is about the size of the units of content development that make sense, economically, in terms of delivering people content. If you deviate from that, then what you offer won't be perceived as offering value for money.

And as I said in my example, the development costs of a typical game are heavily front-loaded. It makes more economic sense to charge a "gatekeeper" amount to get access to the whole lot of the game, rather than charge people per-hour or something. The marginal costs of giving you an extra hour of gametime are so low compared to developing the thing in the first place. So that's one reason digital game "rental" doesn't make much sense, and things work out better if you ship a $60 game then do free-to-play or something.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 08:09:51 am by Reelya »
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147318 on: September 26, 2019, 08:12:04 am »

Also it is fair to assume that the technical requirements (provide enough computational power for each client) are such a huge investments, that this is in no way the most economic way to distribute.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147319 on: September 26, 2019, 08:30:22 am »

It could still carve out a niche. Remember what I said about rental making sense when it's sharing something scarce? Server time on a server rack counts for that. However, if you're gaming 24/7 on the service then of course it's costing you more than just buying a high-end machine and getting the games yourself. But for someone who's time-poor then it could make economic sense. If you game on the streaming service 2.5 hours a day then they effectively need to charge you 10% of what that high-end gaming rig costs to run to break even. Consider that if you own 100% a high-end gaming rig, you still might only have time to game 2.5 hours a day, or getting 10% of the capacity-use of the device. So, paying for the 10% of one machine you actually use might save money.

Game rental thus makes no sense for the reasons I already outlined, but game streaming might. Just expect that it will be streamed from a third-party, not the developers, for the same reason that movie studios never liked rentals.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 08:36:20 am by Reelya »
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147320 on: September 26, 2019, 09:01:16 am »

Sure, that's precisely why I hesitated and decided to not add "and ecologic" to economic... Because it's like with car sharing: you reduce the number of unused cars taking up parking space. But I meant it more from the seller's perspective: it's definitly easier to make profits by only selling a perpetual license.

There are things that can be done that couldn't be done otherwise, like say play BF5 with full raytracing in the middle of a corn field, but since it's such a convoluted method of delivery you should remain extremly suspicious of these services. Because if it's not more cost-effective to the manufacturer you just have to assume there are ulterior motives.


(seriously the youtube video is a bit long but really good)
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Doomblade187

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147321 on: September 26, 2019, 09:38:30 am »

So, Game rental actually does have a strong niche - Redbox rents out AAA games at low daily prices, enabling people to play them on consoles without dropping 50-60 bucks on it. They unfortunately have limited selection, and depending on how popular consoles stay, it may go away, but it does have a niche.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147322 on: September 26, 2019, 09:45:36 am »

Ok, I got you, you mean most economic way to ship copies of the game.

However. where I think game streaming will get it's niche is in the 'holistic' benefit to the consumer: the total investment in hardware + software being lower than needing to buy all that stuff yourself. Also, while it's true that both game-makers and hardware-makers lose out in this scenario, arguing that this is an economic loss is not hoiiistic enough - what the consumer saves here on costs is money the consumer can spend elsewhere. Maybe instead of a $3000 rig he buys a bigger $3000 screen or better furniture. Resources are freed up for other things when not spent on doing something that could be done for less. Society as a whole benefits when we work out ways we can offer equivalent service at a cheaper cost to the consumer.

So, Game rental actually does have a strong niche - Redbox rents out AAA games at low daily prices, enabling people to play them on consoles without dropping 50-60 bucks on it. They unfortunately have limited selection, and depending on how popular consoles stay, it may go away, but it does have a niche.

Because those are still physical they have a niche, since the cost can be spread out among multiple people for a single purchase. The limited selection is because it's marginal - there are only a handful of new-release or very popular titles it works for. Compare that to a VHS rental store of yore: every conceivable movie they could cram in would be there, even obscure ones. For rental games in Redbox, some games would be more in-demand than others, and only the most in-demand dozen or so games on the latest platform are there: all the others are below the marginal threshold for stocking them.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 09:57:30 am by Reelya »
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147323 on: September 26, 2019, 10:18:19 am »

Um yeah so you can just rent harddrive space, like dropbox. Physical limitations are a really good point. The whole market strategy and narrative is only an odious attempt to preserve the kind of profit margins that were allowing these places to run in the first place when technical limitations were different allowing them to bar normal people from ownership.

If I'm renting hardware space from a third party then we just come back to the problem of the data just going poof when the third party goes down and with it goes my claims to owning the media (just like with Steam). Whether it's on disks or on a drive I still need to keep the data somewhere myself to keep it.


And at the point of renting space to keep games I own but aren't interested in actually taking up again, why wouldn't I just sent them? It's much less of a hassle. I rent Call of Assassin's Creed 43, stream the game, and when I'm done I forget the game ever existed.

Here's a shocking idea: Just uninstall games you've beaten or otherwise do not plan to play anytime soon, and then use that space to install the ones you do want

If I uninstall the game from my computer I still need to store the data somewhere. If I don't have anywhere to store the data that makes up the game I can't install it again later. So I need to either store it myself, pay a third party, or hope that the venue I purchased it from originally still exists so I can download it from there again.

For example, I buy a lot of games on GoG, who sells their games DRM free which means I am free to copy and move the data wherever I want to. I don't, though. I'm not interested in keeping a lot of that data around - my laptop has too little space and I don't want to keep dozens of burn disks around or devote an external hard drive to it So I rely on GoG to store it somewhere for me. If GoG goes bankrupt, all my claims to owning that data/license will rip with them.


Well if you download a game then play only part of it, the actual distribution costs are almost identical. So owning the whole thing isn't sufficiently different in costs to "rental". There is going to be so much content that's re-used between sections in the typical game. You may as well just have digital rights to the entire game, and only have it installed when you want.

As far as I know, streaming the game means you aren't downloading the whole game like you do with say Steam. Isn't that the entire point of the concept of streamed games?
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147324 on: September 26, 2019, 10:28:54 am »

That's the problem of cost right there. If you stream the whole game, you used more data than it would have taken to just download the entire game. The cost would exceed buying it digitally and just having download rights.

Game streaming's advantage isn't that you're "renting" rather than "buying" digital rights at all, that's a misconception. Where you're saying money on streaming is because you didn't have to invest in hardware.

What they'll do is say that you can buy licenses for the games, as normal for any other service, and once you own the license you can play that game as much as you like. However, you're charged for the cost of the server you're running on per hour, regardless of what game you're running. This is not the same as "rental". You'll have an ever-growing library, the same as Steam. Think about it: the more possible choices you have, the more time they can keep you on their service. If they time-limited any particular game then you might have less choices, you might use the service less.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 10:49:42 am by Reelya »
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147325 on: September 26, 2019, 10:48:25 am »

Quote
If I'm renting hardware space from a third party then we just come back to the problem of the data just going poof when the third party goes down and with it goes my claims to owning the media (just like with Steam).

You do have the hassle of installing it once, that is true but I'm fairly confident that it should work for just about any game, besides longer loading times. The whole point of opposing games as a service is so that games can't go poof. Yes there are risks involved with cloud storage, but so are there with physical, on that aspect I'd say: a person is personally liable how they store their data. But what is not okay, is retroactively tampering with your ownership of a perpetual license, which is simply a consequence of reckless DRM implementation / lack of "end of support plan"... I am absolutely convinced that the industry purposefully does this whole narrative building to blur the lines of ownership in digital media... And if they could reasonably afford to, they'd be streaming us our Operation Systems in real time and we'd have never physically owned a single one of our photos and typed texts. Hence the need to not let it come to that, our politicians are obviously illiterate on the subject.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 10:51:14 am by dragdeler »
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147326 on: September 26, 2019, 11:29:38 am »

That's the problem of cost right there. If you stream the whole game, you used more data than it would have taken to just download the entire game. The cost would exceed buying it digitally and just having download rights.

"Used" more data, but was that data used on my side or theirs? This is like the reason you have to use a megacomputer to make a CGI movie but I can still watch the result on my shitty notepad because it doesn't have to load all the models and the textures and everything, it just needs to load the result.

And regardless, even if streaming a game took up more data on my computer than just downloading it, declaring that it because of that it means that downloading it would be the preferable option is a thought somersault as it's not just one game -- the download and keep methodology still requires and ever increasing amount of space as all the downloaded media accumulates while the streaming method only needs the requires the memory it is using right then.


What they'll do is say that you can buy licenses for the games, as normal for any other service, and once you own the license you can play that game as much as you like. However, you're charged for the cost of the server you're running on per hour, regardless of what game you're running. This is not the same as "rental". You'll have an ever-growing library, the same as Steam. Think about it: the more possible choices you have, the more time they can keep you on their service. If they time-limited any particular game then you might have less choices, you might use the service less.

Yes, I am aware that this is the case. But this is a problem with the business itself, not game streaming as a medium. If we return to my original post, you can see that I am talking about how I wouldn't be averse to streaming some games if it functioned like a rental service -- I'm not saying that that is how Google/Microsoft Streaming Service or any other such platform is going to work.
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147327 on: September 26, 2019, 11:51:04 am »

I do not deny the appeal of an online arcade, as I said there is the mobility aspect, but it's also really useful if you'd rather try 10 different games than finish one.


Just anecdotally, there are games that can easily exceed the amount of download a full install takes, when streaming one hour of 1080p60 or higher resolutions. Go watch twitch for comparison, unaffiliated streamers will most likely have 1080p60... But at 6mbs bitrate (that's why you see the cubes in dark areas); the uncompressed bitrate for that resolution is well in the hundreds, encoding video can be very demanding depending on the implementation, (so probably a narrower choice of games) but I'm getting sidetracked. Just to say a few hours of really crisp image like your computer outputs directly to the monitor is a substantial download.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 11:53:31 am by dragdeler »
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scourge728

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147328 on: September 26, 2019, 01:21:04 pm »

Not to mention the costs related to internet usage for that much data

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #147329 on: September 26, 2019, 05:06:55 pm »

Woke up on the train in fuckin' Mentone, of all places.
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