Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 10107 10108 [10109] 10110 10111 ... 10974

Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 13000974 times)

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151620 on: May 23, 2020, 07:35:31 am »

That assumes honest government rather than a kleptocracy, and it assumes that the government operates smoothly. If both those things are true, government monopolies on vital services can be quite good. If either is false, government monopolies become among the worst options.

The Cleptocracy vs Honest Government Assumption  argument is an deflection. A private company will always be dishonest and will always channel away as much as it can get away with. It will always hire legal and financial professionals to make sure they aren't overlooking any opportunities or loopholes to steal more. They will always hire lobbyists and "relationship culturers" to influence authorities to open up new opportunities to channel away more money.

The argument that private companies are better than cleptocracies assumes that there is an honest, integrity-having, and independent government to keep the private businesses reigned in and following both the word and the spirit of the law to keep the squirreling, weaseling and leeching methods inherent to private business from getting out of hand. If the government is a cleptocracy or similar weak state then the private already owns the authorities and can get away with whatever they want to. It's definitely still the worse option.

Logged
Love, scriver~

MaxTheFox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Лишь одна дорожка да на всей земле
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151621 on: May 23, 2020, 07:38:55 am »

I support what amounts to a state capitalist mixed economy. Vital services (such as medicine) and military production, along with whatever else the government feels is too important to leave to the capitalists, are nationalized. Leave everything else to the free market to reduce load on the government. Fully planned economies are too management-heavy and prone to corruption. Let the big pharma get driven out of business by the government making permanent cures/vaccines ASAP, I don't care.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 07:45:30 am by MaxTheFox »
Logged
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

ChairmanPoo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Send in the clowns
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151622 on: May 23, 2020, 08:35:22 am »

Here private health care is the only one that works. Its always have been expensive but now is simply beyond most mortals.

The public health care is basically non existant now. It used to barelly work but corruption drove it to the ground.
Maybe, but generalizing your circumstances to the rest of the world is not necessarily an accurate take.
By and large, most perceptions that private care is better than public healthcare comes from a combination of propaganda, systematic underfunding of public healthcare, or, even more frequently, lack of access to private healthcare (of course the waiting lists will be shorter if most people can't afford to be in *their* waiting list)

Recent example from sweden: Privatisation of the apothecaries. Used to be a fine government monopoly bringing service to the entire country. The right decided that was bad and that it needed to be privatised so it could be more effective.

What does more effective mean? Well, here are the effects so fsr:
1. Less service. Apothecaries flock to the cities and leave the countryside untended whereas the old govnopoly covered the whole country. Private business claim the countryside is unprofitable and that they can't be responsible. Government has to pay private business huge extra support just so they don't close down the venues the old govnopoly had no issue keeping open. Extortion is pretty effective though.

2. Less safety. Sales of expired or otherwise unhealthy or unsafe materials have increased. But hey, selling unsafe goods is more effective than throwing them away.

3. Less stock. Apothecaries no longer carry the amount medicine they used to. Shortages of both common and rare medicines are constant. Hope you'll never need your penicillin in a hurry. It'll take 2-3 days before it comes in. It's just not effective to keep a stock before you know what people will purchase.

4. 90% of all stores are now beauty/make up and candy. Sure, the old apothecaries carries beauty products too. They even had their own brand, actually. Aimed at people with sensitive skin and such which can't buy the usual stuff sold in supermarkets or beauty stores. And I guess they sold chewing gum and salivators before too, that's kind of candy-like I guess. But it turns out that just stocking beauty and candy products is more effective than stocking medicine.

Net result? The tax payer pays more, and gets less out of it. But it's more effective for the risk-capitalist businesses than owns them and profits off of it, while moving said profits too tax havens so they don't benefit society. Leaching hard earned wealth away from Sweden every day.

IMO that's  very good example on why private is not always more efficient, why some sectors should be goverment controlled or at least heavily regulated, and why healthcare shouldn't operate on a "maximize profits and efficiency" basis.

Another example is the current pandemic. Many countries, with many different healthcare system.models, have been "streamlining" healthcare for years, which has resulted in a drop in service, and a sharper drop in living standards for HCWs. And when the current situation happened, it turned out there was a lack of equipment and personnel. As it turns out there are good reasons to aim for redundancy in strategic sectors.
Logged
There's two kinds of performance reviews: the one you make they don't read, the one they make whilst they sharpen their daggers
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

Lord Shonus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Angle of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151623 on: May 23, 2020, 08:42:43 am »

Let the big pharma get driven out of business by the government making permanent cures/vaccines ASAP, I don't care.


Vaccine research already makes up a huge percentage of medical R&D (both public and private) globally, and there's been huge progress in curing diseases. The whole "theys suppressing the cure because they'd lose money" theory is a classic example of "I have no idea how this actually works, because I've never studied this field, but I'll just assume whatever explanation jives with my ideology is correct". Note that the only genuine evidence (as opposed to "this miracle cure splashed over the media never actually amounted to anything, obviously Big Pharma had them assassinated") anybody ever trots out to support this is a paper by a non-medical investment group.
Logged
On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Iduno

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151624 on: May 23, 2020, 09:19:29 am »

Aren't all or most utilities on the US private? I can tell you that private things tend to be more effective indeed and as long a sensible regulation is in place to avoid the dickery of calculating the costs of the lives of workers then is better than public.

I can tell you that it's been proven this is not the case. Particularily in the case of healthcare.
Eh, the US doesn't have private healthcare really.  US healthcare is almost like public health care, except that instead of being funded by taxes, it is funded by health care premiums so it doesn't cover everyone.  This is only different from being funded by taxpayers on paper: in both instances, payment is disconnected from demand because payments are made out of a huge pool of customers, not from the abilities of the customers themselves.  The provider chain can charge "what the market will bear" but the market in this instance is the insurance companies ability to pay, not the individual's ability to pay.

Also, by making it private, they can choose to refuse services that are necessary by claiming there are alternatives available, even when they don't work or are not actually available. Or by claiming it was someone else's responsibility (ie work-related injuries not being covered by the insurance through the employer, and the employer only re-directing responsibility to the insurance company).


The healthcare reforms in the US essentially did nothing because it increased (maybe) the pool of money but more importantly the pool of demand (by removing restrictions on prior conditions, for instance) while doing nothing to increase supply, which is really what has to happen in order to bring costs under control.  You could also split the system into "primary and preventative care", "chronic care", and "acute care" and probably get benefits from that too.  Health care premiums for my family are, I think, the highest expense on my budget (if you include my employer's contribution) - if not highest they are a close second to my mortgage.

The purpose of healthcare reform was to make sure that neither the insurance companies nor the pharmaceutical companies had to stop profiteering at the cost of human lives, while making it look like the politicians were doing something.
Logged

LordBaal

  • Bay Watcher
  • System Lord and Hanslanda lees evil twin.
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151625 on: May 23, 2020, 02:48:05 pm »

Well I can only speak of my experience pals, sorry if it offends you. At any rate monopolies, either private or state are bad because they have you by the balls.
Logged
I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

ChairmanPoo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Send in the clowns
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151626 on: May 23, 2020, 03:07:34 pm »

You realize that statement makes no sense in regards to public healthcare, as it's supposed to be a public service. You don't set rival branches of a public service. You make sure the civil service conforms to standards by regularly auditing it, whether it's healthcare, revenue, or the postal office.
Logged
There's two kinds of performance reviews: the one you make they don't read, the one they make whilst they sharpen their daggers
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

LordBaal

  • Bay Watcher
  • System Lord and Hanslanda lees evil twin.
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151627 on: May 23, 2020, 03:16:58 pm »

Im speaking more on regards utilites and specially telecomunications.

Sure healthcare migth be a bit different but there are places with both private and public healthcare and heck even only private one and it works.

All Im saying is public systems becomes bloated, underfunded and corrupt unless there is enough ethics to keep it working as it should, and the money still comes from your pockets via taxes anyway.

And you can have "competing" branches in a sense. See our electrical issues, if it wasnt all cobbled together into a big, useless monopoly every state could have its own company that would work towards supplying power, via generation or imports from other states or Brazil and/or Colombia. Dunno if competing would be the word, thing is also our political division is kinda different from yours.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 03:20:42 pm by LordBaal »
Logged
I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

ChairmanPoo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Send in the clowns
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151628 on: May 23, 2020, 03:42:03 pm »

Quote
Sure healthcare migth be a bit different but there are places with both private and public healthcare and heck even only private one and it works.
There's no place with functional coverage for the majority of the population with only private healthcare. Not without public funding. It does not work.

And the myth about bloated inefficiency in public departments is particularily untrue in regards to healthcare. It has been shown time and again that public healthcare systems are more efficient (bang for buck) than hybrid ones, which in turn are more efficient than pure private sector systems. I'm not going to give an opinion about telecom because I don't know, I don't care, and I don't know of any examples which can be honestly be compared side to side.  But in regards to healthcare? It simply doesn't work as you think it works.

And private hospitals in countries with public healthcare.... I'm not going to address that either because it's fairly irrelevant. But the vast majority dont work as you think they do either.  (You get several kinds and there are caveats with most of them)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 03:44:57 pm by ChairmanPoo »
Logged
There's two kinds of performance reviews: the one you make they don't read, the one they make whilst they sharpen their daggers
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151629 on: May 23, 2020, 03:52:57 pm »

Yeah, I know of no country that has strictly private healthcare that could be called working, even charitably. The closest I'm aware of, though I forget exactly which nation it is, also does stuff like own most of the country's housing; the private healthcare only works to the extent it does due to other parts of life being gov't ran.

Most healthcare, and especially emergency healthcare of any sort, just fundamentally does not work in a private market environment. Can not work. The things that keeps prices manageable and service or product at a decent level (stuff like being able to shop around, having access to multiple competitors, and sufficient knowledge and leverage over providers to negotiate and whatnot, and so on) just flatly is not and cannot be available to a person who is actively bleeding out, or coughing their lungs out, or dealing with chronic pain, or etc., etc., etc. Shit just don't work, so prices will go out of control, service will be shit for most participants (both of which can be deadly when it comes to healthcare), and so on.

Certain other necessities aren't quite as bad on that front, but the same issues arise with most major lifegiving utilities, really. It you're dead from exposure without a roof over your head, whoever controls the housing has you by the proverbial (or literal, depending on how corrupt shit gets) reproductive organs. It's bad enough when a public servant has that kind of leverage on you, someone who's primary incentive is to drain every last monetary unit they can out of you is just... worse.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151630 on: May 23, 2020, 04:23:24 pm »

Well I can only speak of my experience pals, sorry if it offends you. At any rate monopolies, either private or state are bad because they have you by the balls.

No, I am sorry if I got overly heated. I understand the circumstances of your government is different from the circumstances of mine. Here the religion of privatisation is something deteriorated our society during my lifetime, and in the case of with my grandmother literally put the life of a dear family member at stake. So I do get upset about it. I would understand if you got upset of the opposite as well.
Logged
Love, scriver~

LordBaal

  • Bay Watcher
  • System Lord and Hanslanda lees evil twin.
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151631 on: May 23, 2020, 04:36:46 pm »

In Israel and Switzerland do have private insures funding everyrhing as far as I know but I migth be wrong guys.


Well I can only speak of my experience pals, sorry if it offends you. At any rate monopolies, either private or state are bad because they have you by the balls.

No, I am sorry if I got overly heated. I understand the circumstances of your government is different from the circumstances of mine. Here the religion of privatisation is something deteriorated our society during my lifetime, and in the case of with my grandmother literally put the life of a dear family member at stake. So I do get upset about it. I would understand if you got upset of the opposite as well.
In my case has been the other way around but the same fucking depresing results, only widespread to ALL population.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 05:01:58 pm by LordBaal »
Logged
I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151632 on: May 23, 2020, 05:07:34 pm »

Switzerland is compulsory, minimum care is legally mandated, and costs for the patients subsidized if they're too high (too high being over like 8% of the person's income), eyeballing things. There's explicitly public aspects of it, too. It's about as wholly private as a stripper's nipples.

Israel's in a similar position, near as I can tell, except its base/last-resort providers seem to be legally mandated non-profits, which seem to be substantially funded by taxation, or something along those lines. Profiting on a number of services seems to be straight up illegal, too.

Probably nuances involved with both I'm missing, but neither are actually wholly private or getting the money/resources involved entirely through private funding.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

LordBaal

  • Bay Watcher
  • System Lord and Hanslanda lees evil twin.
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151633 on: May 23, 2020, 05:10:35 pm »

Thanks for the clarification my friend.
Logged
I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Frumple

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Prettiest Kyuuki
    • View Profile
Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151634 on: May 23, 2020, 05:13:40 pm »

Eh, no prob, I guess. Like I said, I think there's one healthcare system that's ostensibly more or less entirely private (it's touted by pro-privatization nuts regularly), but it has caveats so big regarding other issues they'd function as flotation devices for small cities.
Logged
Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.
Pages: 1 ... 10107 10108 [10109] 10110 10111 ... 10974