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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 7280971 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152250 on: July 13, 2020, 04:21:36 pm »

F
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152251 on: July 13, 2020, 04:22:23 pm »

  :D Risky grenades, also Alyx outcompeting Barney with the ₼ pose, such dominance.
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Iduno

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152252 on: July 13, 2020, 04:34:51 pm »

What video game has the smartest AI?

That would be the first F.E.A.R game. They managed to achieve that feat by personalizing the AI of each specific encounter to the area it appeared in. To put it a different way, rather than design a general AI which would analyze an area and figure out how to fight in it, they told the AI how to fight for each specific level which gave the designers a lot more control in how the encounter would play out. The AI would immediately know which places were safe to hide in, where the good flanking routes were for reaching a given player position, and they'd even be given a few special environmental tricks sometimes such as kicking over tables or vaulting over railings (though I guess that one is in other games too).

F.E.A.R.'s AI was an incredible breakthrough in gaming and it's a crime that no one's ever bothered to replicate it since. Even the original developers gave up on it as it was nowhere to be found in the sequels.

They actually revealed afterwards that the AI wasn't any smarter than normal, but they had figured out how the AI and players were pathfinding, so they built levels that made it seem like the AI were doing smart things.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152253 on: July 13, 2020, 05:39:10 pm »

What video game has the smartest AI?

That would be the first F.E.A.R game. They managed to achieve that feat by personalizing the AI of each specific encounter to the area it appeared in. To put it a different way, rather than design a general AI which would analyze an area and figure out how to fight in it, they told the AI how to fight for each specific level which gave the designers a lot more control in how the encounter would play out. The AI would immediately know which places were safe to hide in, where the good flanking routes were for reaching a given player position, and they'd even be given a few special environmental tricks sometimes such as kicking over tables or vaulting over railings (though I guess that one is in other games too).

F.E.A.R.'s AI was an incredible breakthrough in gaming and it's a crime that no one's ever bothered to replicate it since. Even the original developers gave up on it as it was nowhere to be found in the sequels.

They actually revealed afterwards that the AI wasn't any smarter than normal, but they had figured out how the AI and players were pathfinding, so they built levels that made it seem like the AI were doing smart things.

Ya, they custom-built the AI for each fight, to put it simply.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152254 on: July 13, 2020, 06:40:20 pm »

You got that the wrong way around. From what Iduno said, it looks like they used generic AI but did testing and tweaked the *levels* until it appeared that the AI happened to be smarter.

To put it another way, if the AIs are always  getting stuck on corners, you can either try and rewrite the AIs so that they avoid the corners (hard), rewrite the physics/collision system (hard) or just make it so there are no hard corners where the AI goes (easy). "Removing the corners" (or putting invisible cushions on the corners) is the kind of tweak we're talking about here, and while it'll help the AIs seem less dumb, I'd hardly call that "writing custom AI" for the situation of getting stuck on corners.

The reason they couldn't replicate the AI trick for the F.E.A.R sequels by that reasoning is that because custom map-tweaking to make "clever" AI things happen is a trick you can only pull off once. Once you've used up the bag of tricks then you can only pull off the same tricks again.

For example you might have a rating on standing in different locations, so you give an area with good cover value a high rating, so the AIs will tend to want to go there, and they won't tend to wander out into the open fire-area where the player can shoot them because that area has a low rating. It will just appear that they're not wandering out because they don't want to be shot, but it's costly in development time to bother with all this.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 07:12:03 pm by Reelya »
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152255 on: July 13, 2020, 07:21:25 pm »

Ah, no. That's not what they did.


It worked in FEAR because of the segmented nature of the story, and the lore basically allows for the enemies to be ambushing you at every turn if necessery.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 07:23:36 pm by Dunamisdeos »
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152256 on: July 14, 2020, 02:40:04 pm »

I feel like this discussion isn't going to much further unless someone starts citing sources. Otherwise it's one person's word against the others. All I can say is that when I played F.E.A.R, the AI used some pretty sophisticated tactics that I can't possibly see as the result of some level design tweaks. I've had the AI sneak up on me, fire some rounds and then retreat behind a wall as it tried to reposition for another ambush. Maybe fancy level geometry can create something like that, but all I can tell you is that it definitely beats the chest-high-wall wack-a-mole you see in so many other shooters.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152257 on: July 14, 2020, 02:47:25 pm »

Fair nuff.

Point is it's a fun game, and the enemies act in a way that is additionally conducive to fun.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
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FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
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Iduno

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152258 on: July 14, 2020, 07:09:50 pm »

I feel like this discussion isn't going to much further unless someone starts citing sources. Otherwise it's one person's word against the others. All I can say is that when I played F.E.A.R, the AI used some pretty sophisticated tactics that I can't possibly see as the result of some level design tweaks. I've had the AI sneak up on me, fire some rounds and then retreat behind a wall as it tried to reposition for another ambush. Maybe fancy level geometry can create something like that, but all I can tell you is that it definitely beats the chest-high-wall wack-a-mole you see in so many other shooters.

I tried, but it turns out "fear" is sort of a common term, even in game design (so adding game to the search terms doesn't help so much).
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152259 on: July 14, 2020, 07:14:51 pm »

Friggin' shuffle playing mind games. Went from the tail*end of great big sea's The Mermaid ("here fishy fishy fishy") to a song by this person. *I apologize for nothing
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152260 on: July 14, 2020, 07:29:19 pm »

Yo I don't have time to read it right now but here's an article from M.I. freakin T about the AI in F.E.A.R.

Let it be the meter by which our truths are measured.

http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
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FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152261 on: July 14, 2020, 07:33:27 pm »

Let it be the meter by which our truths are measured.

Spoiler: fair enough (click to show/hide)
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152262 on: July 14, 2020, 07:45:40 pm »

Let it be the meter by which our truths are measured.

Spoiler: fair enough (click to show/hide)

The pizza ordering metric alone puts this AI at the level of your average college student, at least.
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FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152263 on: July 15, 2020, 03:59:02 am »

"Orkin, Jeff"

If you swap the beginnings of his names around, it becomes "Jerkin, Off"

wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #152264 on: July 15, 2020, 04:02:05 am »

And here I thought it was a euphemism to hiring a hitman.

(Orkin is a major pest exterminating company in the US.)
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