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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 9513938 times)

heydude6

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157695 on: October 16, 2021, 08:44:21 am »

this is my .02$ worth on the whole thing:

You have two opposing forces, combined with a patriarchal model, conspiring to produce the kind of systemic "NO! NONE OF THE GAY!" antics normally seen in more conservative cultures:

1) Such cultures tend to be only a short stone's throw away from subsistence/agrarian living.  The difference between prosperity and starvation often hinged on how many horrible screaming offspring you could spawn into the world to do dreary, back breaking farm labor for you.  As such, being SUPER STRAIGHT and even TOXIC MACHISMO were considered boons.

2) It has been shown that the more male children a woman has, the greater the statistical odds of any subsequent male children being gay. (with each successive one producing increased chances of increased gayness.)

Which of course, means that the conditional setup for 1), produces LOTS OF GAY due to 2.  Now, the setup.

3) Due to the highly dangerous nature of manual farm labor, and the disease risks often found with that modality of life, kids tended to die.  They tended to die quite often.  This made inheritance in a patriarchal hierarchy.... "Complicated"... when the next heir is totally more into Billy than into Bonnie. 

This leads to at least 3 ways to deal with it:

1) Beat the living fuck out your gay kids, and tell them to be straight and marry a woman, and make babies so they can inherit the farm OR ELSE--

2) Outright fucking KILL your gay kids as soon as you discover that they are gay (which, through the simple desire to not be dead, results in gay kids following path 1, and being very unhealthy mentally), and bank on being able to bounce more crotch spawn out to inherit your massive ecosystem destroying herd of sheep/goats/cattle/other.

3) Challenge the normal inheritance model, so that a reproductively viable offspring is able to handle the continuance of the family lands and thus assure the future providence of your lineage. (not necessarily a male child even.)


Over time, option 3 gets exercised sufficiently often, especially as the impetus to have that patriarchal inheritance framework continue evaporates due to improvements in living conditions, and thus being gay becomes more socially acceptable/accepted.   Before then, though- and especially in cultures that still have strong connections to that agrarian near-subsistence modality of function, options 1 and 2 dominate-- and they are not very nice to gay men.


Religion plays a role, but it really essentially comes down to a collectively-agreed-upon "Way things SHOULD BE!", and thus, as both incentive and excuse to justify taking options 1 and 2.  The necessity of taking options 1 and 2 leads to the necessity to create a religion that demands it also, so that the people can feel "OK" with being that way to their own damn children.

There is of course, the inevitable evolution of a professional priest class, which then rides that wild bull with reckless abandon, and you end up with shit like the middle east.

The exception to the rule, is places like India, where historically there are "Third Gender" people, that are accepted. 



SOOOO


Basically, the actual, real reason why some parts of the world are so down on your sexuality is:

If you are allowed to be openly gay, then their gay kids will want to be openly gay, and that will lead to family lands and possessions that have been passed down since the bronze age being subsumed by some other group, through failure of the inheritance model.  (Also, their god, which they invented to provide societal support to enforcing this more, thinks gay is icky, and stuff.)

Basically, the family strong-man cant be gay.  Its not allowed-- and cannot be allowed.  As such, all gay must be not allowed.

As interesting as your theory is Wierd, I don’t think it explains the cultures where gay shit was never stigmatized. Ancient Rome, Greece, Sparta, etc. were pretty cool with homosexuality, and Japan was too for most of its history (modern japan is more homophobic than medieval japan somehow).

To me, based on how it lines up with the timing, it honestly does seem like Christianity was the cause of it even though I usually prefer to stay away from the “Relgion BAD” arguments. Usually religions have their reasons for their traditions, but I’m not fully aware of the reasons for this one.

I don’t know what attitude India and Africa had towards homo stuff, but Christianity reached those places pretty late, so if they had problems with it too, then at least we know it’s not the sole cause of this stigma, though it’s still by-far the biggest one.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 08:48:23 am by heydude6 »
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157696 on: October 16, 2021, 09:06:56 am »

Big scratch on Rome there buddy.

Big scratch.

I think you mean Greece. Greeks had very ... stilted... views about homosexual male behavior.  While they DID have a cultural adoption of it as normal via the practice of mentors and eromenos, the mode of that homosexuality was aggressively policed to ONLY intercrural. Penetrative anal was deemed demasculating. (Which is only a problem if you are trying to hold up the patriarch model, which the Greeks totally were!)

In Rome, male homosexuality of all stripes was looked down on quite pejoratively. While there were some infamous gay emperors, it was more a case of "dont call it out" rather than acceptance.

Spartan culture was much too concerned with subjugating helots, and was not agrarian. Apples and oranges; spartans did not grow thier own food.
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Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157697 on: October 16, 2021, 09:13:24 am »

In Rome, male homosexuality of all stripes was looked down on quite pejoratively. While there were some infamous gay emperors, it was more a case of "dont call it out" rather than acceptance.

Well... Sorta.

Romans had some peculiar views on sexuality. While homosexuality was absolutely condemned and could lose a person their status, estate, and potentially even their life, what the Romans defined as "homosexuality" was... Different.

To oversimplify it, it was a matter of "I'm not gay! The dude I'm fucking is gay". They didn't care about the fact that it was male-on-male, so much as it was a matter of what the perceived status of that person was. If you're the one giving, you're obviously a strong, upstanding male citizen. If you're the one taking however, then you're clearly no better than a*ecch*woman, and have no business carrying titles of respect in our good, powerful society.

dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157698 on: October 16, 2021, 10:44:14 am »

Heh I got some trivia on that as well, there was a funny inversion going on:

In hellenistic culture aspirationally the status of women was defined generously, but IRL they were supposed to stay at the stove.

Whereas in roman culture asprirationally the status of women wasn't that nice, but IRL a matriarch married to roman citizen and mother to roman citizen was not somebody to disrespect, and could have quite a say when her husband was on campaign, or tradetravel or whatever.
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LordBaal

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157699 on: October 16, 2021, 12:21:46 pm »

In rome as a slave owner you could fuck your male slaves and it would not be considered homosexual, just using your propriety.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157700 on: October 16, 2021, 01:28:09 pm »

In rome as a slave owner you could fuck your male slaves and it would not be considered homosexual, just using your propriety.

That is correct; however, it would have been considered abusive of the slave (but not in more than a 'poor taste' capacity.)
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Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157701 on: October 16, 2021, 01:57:37 pm »

Today was apparently "sleep for 13 hours more or less straight" day. It's... been a while since that's happened.
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Iduno

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157702 on: October 16, 2021, 03:40:28 pm »

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LordBaal

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157703 on: October 16, 2021, 03:55:18 pm »

In rome as a slave owner you could fuck your male slaves and it would not be considered homosexual, just using your propriety.

That is correct; however, it would have been considered abusive of the slave (but not in more than a 'poor taste' capacity.)

Well, I mean, what you make of somebody that fucks their fridge, chairs or cattle... it would be an awkward topic of conversation then as is now.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1448741745584480259

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Why would anyone require a book about "opposite perspective" on fucking historical and empirical facts? Now what? If you teach how Europe colonized the Americas you are also required to teach how the Aztec empire invaded and conquered Europe?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 04:00:16 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Grim Portent

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157704 on: October 16, 2021, 04:07:11 pm »

Why would anyone require a book about "opposite perspective" on fucking historical and empirical facts? Now what? If you teach how Europe colonized the Americas you are also required to teach how the Aztec empire invaded and conquered Europe?

The 'opposite perspective' in that case would probably be an pro-colonial book about how Europeans civilised the barbaric natives.

Y'know, a text promoting genocide.
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LordBaal

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157705 on: October 16, 2021, 04:12:25 pm »

So in this case the heroic nazis rounded up those dangerous people based on their religion and/or etnic, specially the children, and shoved then to ovens and gas chambers for the sake of all mankind?

Or those poor, depressed people were so driven to help in the war effort that they voluntered to work to death and be killed en mase?

It could be argued that the europeans in fact did ended a terror regime the aztecs had on a lot of other people on the region (to put down their own fucking regime of course) and introduced advanced technology, while also replacing a religion that outrigth demanded human hearts for another religion that at least not demanded human sacrifices (but was still used to condone the mass killings of A LOT of people, you know, like 99% of religions at some point). It does not change the thing was a pretty brutal affair and people got fucked over by it, and it should be teach with facts, not feelings, like all academic afairs.

Just like the nazis rounded millions of innocent people and killed them like cattle, for a number of reasons. What is to argue or excuse for them?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2021, 04:21:11 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

Grim Portent

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157706 on: October 16, 2021, 04:30:48 pm »

Anti-Holocaust rhetoric comes in two main forms. The first is that it never happened, the second is that the Jews and other minorities needed to be killed on the grounds that they are some kind of enemy merely by existing.

I've never bothered to look into either type in any detail, because I consider both to be fucking stupid, but the former is to my understanding based on a very tortured interpretation of events that involve claiming lots of things like photographs of the death camps were fabricated after the war. The latter is based on a combination of racism and nationalism.


As for the Aztecs, I'd generally say that as long as the majority of the people within their empire and immediate neighbours believed in human sacrifice then they were actually acting perfectly fine in doing so, because the victims weren't bothered by the practice, just who was in a position to carry it out. My only issue with human sacrifice is when someone who doesn't believe in it is sacrificed to gods that aren't their own.
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There once was a dwarf in a cave,
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157707 on: October 16, 2021, 04:40:09 pm »

It feels like the demand for historical misrepresentations is rising too. I was just a kid but I feel like towards the end of the last century people like Robert Faurisson were extremly marginal. Nowadays really conservative parties all around the world give revisionism a platform.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157708 on: October 16, 2021, 04:46:14 pm »

ironically, people who deny the holocaust wish it 'actually did' happen
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delphonso

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #157709 on: October 16, 2021, 04:51:03 pm »

It's a new tactic. By making these minority views part of 'the wider discussion', they falsely equivocate themselves as having equal merit or academic rigor.

News doesn't help by hosting little debates and having one person on each side discuss it. That paints an image of a 50-50 split, when it is really less than 1% of historians. Same with climate 'debate', anti-vax stuff, etc
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