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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 6155754 times)

Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143235 on: March 09, 2019, 12:44:47 am »

I just love how everything has to be about dicks and vaginas, and who has what kind of genitals, and how that has so much politics associated with- and especially how you are a nobody, or worse, a part of "The Problem" unless you jump whole hog in with one side or the other.

Identity Politics and burn in fucking hell.  I am sick of this shit.

Yeah, the same people boosting Captain Marvel all apparently got a memo to trash Battle Angel Alita. Some of the complaints are hard to comprehend. For example, the character is slammed for preferring to have a female body-type vs a male one. Because "obviously" according to a TheMarySue writer, a warrior-woman would prefer to look more dude-like. Really? And that's supposed to be pro-woman point of view, they're actually saying a female body type isn't appropriate for a strong character?

Alita has fairly small breasts, but she has them. Because ... duh, she's female and females have breasts. Obvious answer right? But the feminist critic said that Alita should prefer not to have breasts because as a cyborg, she'd be more efficient without them, so she shouldn't want to look like that. This is the insane identity politics world we live in, where having strong female characters with female characteristics that all females have is somehow harmful to female viewers.

They want to tear down gender so much you can't exalt a female character who looks female now. They've got to be male-strong-type females. They've gone so far to the empowerment thing that they've gone out the other side where actually average females are now outside their acceptable zone of representation.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 12:55:25 am by Reelya »
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methylatedspirit

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143236 on: March 09, 2019, 12:54:16 am »

Why is it like life-and-death to these groups, anyway?
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Yoink

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143237 on: March 09, 2019, 12:55:47 am »

Wow, I thought it was weird enough that "progressive" types had basically wound up enforcing gender roles, but now they're saying women ought to be trying to look more like men? 🤔
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143238 on: March 09, 2019, 01:09:59 am »

I'll fish up the article. It was actually from screenrant, though themarysue has a bunch too

https://screenrant.com/alita-design-problem-big-eyes-body/

the point is that Alita gets hold of a male-type cyborg body, then modified it to suit how she preferred to look, which is more feminine. The article claims she has "large breasts" however, they are in fact much smaller and less-emphasized than Wonder Woman's.

Part of it reads:

Quote
it also doesn't make sense that any woman (human or cyborg) having the opportunity to transform their body into that of a warrior's would enlarge her breasts and trim her arms, waist and legs

But i have videos of female reviewers mocking this "speak for yourself!". The point is that the body she started with has zero breasts, then she added some breasts.

Quote
For examples of how actual women think warrior women should look in media, just look to the redesigned She-Ra on Netflix's animated show,

Here's that image. Basically, they have zero tits. They're drawn exactly like boys. It's supposed to be empowering for women to erase any trace of a female body-shape.
https://screenrant.com/netflix-she-ra-reboot-release-date-first-look/
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 01:13:05 am by Reelya »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143239 on: March 09, 2019, 01:12:53 am »

I think that the point might be that having a character have a female body type when they could possibly have a more male body type is bad because it might be thought of as male-gazey? I'm really not sure, and it's an equally infantile point, but that could be it.
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Rolan7

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143240 on: March 09, 2019, 01:15:53 am »

Why is it like life-and-death to these groups, anyway?
I mean, it is.  Women only won the right to vote about 100 years ago (not quite that in the US), and it was a fight.  LGBT public existence is much more recent, but it's all basically yesterday in terms of human history.

The culture war isn't just some game, it's a question of whether we go turn the clock back to "yesterday".  The idea of women being inherently lesser beings isn't just in living memory, it's actively being practiced.  Right now, in America.  Not *legally*, no, but it's happening.

Sorry, your question just hit a nerve, because it actually is literally life and death for these groups.  Many react irrationally, some damaged individuals even call for violence and destruction of their historical oppressors, but everyone affected is justifiably scared.

That's the stakes for us, it's actually existential.  It makes it a bit hard to see the stakes on the other side.  Which are, like... the threat of of being called a bigot?  There being less male-centered fanservice in media?  I have a lot of respect for certain MRAs, because there are real issues of oppression there, but I care more about my own existence than someone being called out on twitter.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 01:17:38 am by Rolan7 »
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143241 on: March 09, 2019, 01:21:04 am »

You do know that universal male suffrage was only a couple of decades earlier than female suffrage don't you? It's kind of misleading to state that. Previously, it was landholders who voted, and I have seen some videos listing the number of women who voted prior to universal suffrage, on the basis of being landholders, in both parts of the USA and in England.

For example, there was a reference to a rich woman who got 4 votes on account of being a large landholder, at a time when 97% of the male population got zero votes.

For example,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage#Dates_by_country

See the UK. 1918 was the year that common men got the vote (along with about 50% of women if they had property), but it took until 1928 for that to be extended to all women. It's just not historical that all men have always been able to vote, with women only being able to do that in the last 100 years. For almost all men (about 97% of the population) they've only been able to vote about the same time.

For the USA, the gap was longer, correct. men could vote for 60 years longer than women could. But, that's still 100 years vs 160 years. Not 100 years vs "dawn of time". Additionally, Wyoming was the first state to bring in full female suffrage, in 1869. This was only 9 years after the amendment mandating full male suffrage. So, women in the USA started getting the vote state by state less than a decade after the mandate for male suffrage was enacted.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 01:39:31 am by Reelya »
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143242 on: March 09, 2019, 01:24:03 am »

...
I'm sorry, but could you explain what you mean by this being a life-or-death, existential threat? I know the stakes are very high, but I haven't heard anyone ever suggesting literally destroying all women, except for a couple of recent douchebags that no-one listens to anyway.
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Rolan7

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143243 on: March 09, 2019, 01:38:36 am »

Women have mostly, through history, been unable to own property.  There are exceptions, particularly in the last couple centuries, but that was the general rule.

Someone who has no rights, and a responsibility to marry and produce children, is de facto a sex-slave.  Even if they've been conditioned to accept it.  I count that as existential, even if they don't die.

LGBT just got killed, often legally, or merely removed from society.
You do know that universal male suffrage was only a couple of decades earlier than female suffrage don't you? It's kind of misleading to state that.
I'm not sure what you even mean?  Suffrage independent of race (the 15th Amendment) was 1870, women got the right to vote at all in 1920 (the 19th Amendment).

Fakedit: Oh fortunately you edited in all of this:
Previously, it was landholders who voted, and I have seen some videos listing the number of women who voted prior to universal suffrage, on the basis of being landholders, in both parts of the USA and in England.

For example, there was a reference to a rich woman who got 4 votes on account of being a large landholder, at a time when 97% of the male population got zero votes. So, it's not really a good overview to just say that until 100 years ago no woman could vote, because until very recently before that in most places, virtually nobody except a few elites got to vote.
So, what, Women's suffrage was unnecessary because a certain woman, in times when voting was restricted to landowners, was permitted to own land in England?
97% of the male population got zero votes.  What percentage of the women got zero votes?

I do agree that the vote was, until relatively recently, restricted to elites.  Women were generally, though not always, prevented from being those elites. 

When the vote was extended "universally", "these groups" for which the culture war is life-or-death were excluded from it.  As they always had been, but even more completely and clearly.
Including LGBT, because felons can't vote.
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Tack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143244 on: March 09, 2019, 01:42:38 am »

Heh. In ancient Sparta, all of the men were soldiers, so the women were the ones who owned property and ran the household.
Aristotle says that's why the country went to shit when they got too rich, but he was an Athenian so... y'know.

-snip-
Huh. That's a really strong point, apart from male-centric fanservice which I find pretty distasteful usually anyway.
... Usually.

Actually, I guess I only dislike it in anime. If some character decides to get out of a pool at a quarter speed, I'm usually eating popcorn.
Y'know up until it visibly affects the story. But the same could be said for female fanservice which doesn't bother me either, despite my straightness. Good abs are always worthy of respect.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143245 on: March 09, 2019, 01:43:52 am »

Quote
So, what, Women's suffrage was unnecessary

No, I'm not saying that. I never made any such statement, or even alluded to the idea you said there.

What I said is that it's misleading to say "women only got the vote 100 years ago" while omitting the important fact that, most men did not in fact have any such right much earlier than that, either.

Quote
After the American Revolution, the Constitution did not originally define who was eligible to vote, allowing each state to determine who was eligible. In the early history of the U.S., most states allowed only white male adult property owners to vote (about 6% of the population).

The only thing the voting-men and non-voting men had in common is their genitals, which is a silly argument, basically, that "all men" had this right, as a group.

This is much more aligned with class rather than gender, since people tend to pair up in male/female pairs, and the female of these super-rich pairs could exert a lot more influence on the male-partner than any regular male-person could. The actual truth isn't that all male people wielded "voting power" denied to all female people, the truth was that the super-wealthy class monopolized all the voting power, and wielded that as a class, for the benefit of both male and female members of that class. This was the norm in the previous economic era (pre-industrial) because the family was the organizing economic principle. The male head-of-household isn't excluding others in his family from having influence: It's a one-vote-per-household ethos.

To use a bit of Marxist historical materialism here: it's no accident the order in which male and female suffrage was enacted. Men started working in factories around 1800, and male unionism grew from that point on. The working men got organized, and won the right to vote. For women, the big influx of women into factories didn't occur until after the American Civil War. Partly because of the lack of manpower, but also because of technological advances that meant physical strength wasn't as important. After this point, you get the early suffragettes, female unionists etc. The historical materialism here is clear: the technological and economic factors created the conditions under which critical masses of men or women came together in these 19th century workplaces, but at different times. Organization and political advances for those classes followed from the economic and technological advances, not the other way around.

That's why men got the vote a few decades earlier: working men merely organized themselves a few decades earlier than working women, in American history, due to having moved into factory employment much earlier. By assuming men always had the vote, you'd completely gloss-over the details linking the union movement to how anyone even won the right to vote. Suffrage flowed from unionism and collective action, which only makes sense in the context of the industrial revolution and capitalism. The differing date of male and female suffrage simply reflects the time lag for female industrial workers getting organized vs male workers, which in turn reflects the changing nature of the work from manual labour to machine-operated.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 03:53:44 am by Reelya »
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Bumber

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143246 on: March 09, 2019, 04:12:39 am »

97% of the male population got zero votes.  What percentage of the women got zero votes?

Somewhere within a 3% difference from the males, I'd suspect. \_(ツ)_/
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 04:19:09 am by Bumber »
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143247 on: March 09, 2019, 04:38:11 am »

97% of the male population got zero votes.  What percentage of the women got zero votes?

Somewhere within a 3% difference from the males, I'd suspect. \_(ツ)_/

Or, the same 97% of men and women both lacked the vote, or any influence on anyone who voted.

And 3% of rich men voted. The remaining 3% of women were married to rich men, so we can ... kinda discount those additional 3% as being proof of any sort of disadvantage.

this isn't to say that there isn't any disadvantage: just the argument that because a few % of the wealthy had all the power and happened to be male proves that all males had more power than all females is a bit on the weak side.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 04:44:13 am by Reelya »
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Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143248 on: March 09, 2019, 04:41:39 am »

I'd heard about some anti-SJW stuff surrounding Captain Marvel before it released, and didn't think much more about it (movie with female lead = someone's probably going to be upset about it). So I watched it, expecting it to be something more than the "pussy pandering" certain elements just knew it was going to be.

Well, I was wrong. It's actually kinda bad. The strong characters are all women with no other personality than "is a woman", and the 2-3 friendly male characters are treated as being incompetent for laughs. It's just... I mean, I didn't really like Wonder Woman because she was idolized as being an "empowering female character" despite spending the entire movie trailing after a pretty boy and then whining when things don't go her way. But shit, she was still a better-written character than all three important ladies in Marvel (4 if you count the second one's kid).

There's even this weird fight scene that ran No Doubt's "Just A Girl" as the battle music, and it felt really forced.


I do have to give the movie bonus WTF points for naming the black daughter "Monica". That made me chuckle.

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #143249 on: March 09, 2019, 04:49:24 am »

I am becoming increasingly convinced that hollywood does not know how to create a strong female hero character.  They seem to have this "Formula" that involves "But vulnerable on the inside!" as part of the "If female == true" computation.

eg, "Sure, she can fly, throw buildings around like tinker toys, literally laser-beam-eyeball fries jackassess that catcall, and has precisely zero tolerance for bullshit --- But she's really vulnerable on the inside, and will melt like softened butter if you mention 'X'"

No. A strong person is just that. Strong willed, and determined. They do not need some gender stereotyped kryptonite.  Flush that with the rest of the bullshit.
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