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[Waparius]

Another thing: Pots, saucepans and other implements should be required for cooking, at least in Adventure mode.

It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.

[harborpirate]

Another thing: Pots, saucepans and other implements should be required for cooking, at least in Adventure mode.

It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.

I've seen the whole "dwarves use workshops, but no tools" paradox come up in other threads. I think its probably outside the scope of this thread to handle, because it opens up quite a huge line of discussion unto itself. I'll make a note that if tools are included, that food making will need loads of them.

[AngleWyrm]

It may make things more complex to need a pot (or whatever) in Fortress mode, but it's worth thinking about as a method of making it more difficult to prepare stews and roasts.

There is no such thing as "more difficult;" there is only "more kitchens." Even if a variety of ingredients were required in order to make roasts, it would be simply a matter of "more farm plots." I'm all for both More Kitchens and More Farm Plots.

"Difficult" in this game is just a matter of a problem to be solved.

[vhappylurker]

I know this was mentioned much earlier in the thread, but I'd say Magma Kitchens could work especially if the option for having multiple types of kitchen workshops were available. Likely, using magma as power source would probably be best used for setting Communal kitchens or anything that was meant to produce large amounts of food in one go.

I'd like to add my own suggestion that butchery and fishing could be expanded to including preserving meats/fishes as well as creation of things like sausages (instead of having kitchens do it). Plus there could be an option for making different cuts of meat at the butcher shop, so you'd get something like *cow ribeye steak roast* instead of just a *cow roast*. There'd also need be certain ingredients required to make specific food items, like sausages requiring at least one unit of animal intestine to make them. We could even add in things like smokehouses and grills as separate workshops. Think of it! Running a dwarven steakhouse that serves the finest beer and tasty unicron t-bone steaks. 8D

Edit: I left out mentioning the possible addition of delicatessens as a seperate workshop specializing in cold meals and preserved meats/cheeses. (Not exactly medieval, I know, but it still be kind of neat to have them.)

[aka010101]

on the tone of magma furnaces, i'd like to point out that with all this talk of Ice Cream and iceboxes, there's a uniquely dwarven solution to that problem

Nether-caps

Isn't it a key property of those that the wood from them stays consistently cold? It would make it a LOT more valuable for preserving foods. Always cold beer anyone?

[K17U]

I fully support all of this, but I'd like to add three things:

1.)
Brewing wine shouldn't require water, since wine is essentially fermented juice.
It could require processing your prickle berries to juice beforehand though.

2.)
Spoilage could depend on the biome. Food would spoil much faster in a swamp than it would in a desert or on a glacier climate.
Also, different options of preservation might only be possible in certain climates.
I'm thinking of drying especially.

3.)
Similar to how wooden barrels could add to booze flavour, smoking over different kinds of wood could give the food a special flavour.

≡Fungiwood smoked Lamprey≡ anyone?
or ☼Magma smoked Cat sausage☼?

[aka010101]

2.)
Spoilage could depend on the biome. Food would spoil much faster in a swamp than it would in a desert or on a glacier climate.
Also, different options of preservation might only be possible in certain climates.
I'm thinking of drying especially.

Now, i think this is a good idea, but i think it needs more qualifiers than that. For example, dried food WOULD spoil faster in a swamp climate, but there are other ways to preserve food, for example, maybe canned or pickled foods would do better in a humid climate, but not so well in a frozen one, ect.

[Stove]

In seems in my relative absence from the forums (university will do that) a thread on the alcohol industry has passed my notice. D:

Here are previous threads with ideas for the alcohol industry:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=42660.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=31231.0

Brewing shouldn't require fuel, or at least brewing beer and wine shouldn't. Having personally done both I can safely say that that you don't have to use fire. Sprirts should though, for the still.

Beer certainly does require heat. I would say any alcohol that requires water in Dwarf Fortress should require fuel.

Forgive me if it's already been mentioned in this thread, but a long time ago I suggested two separate reactions for alcoholic drinks:

1) Brewing- should be do-able in a kitchen if you have a barrel (and ingredients, water, etc.)
2) Distilled spirits- done in a still; you turn a brewed mash into high-alcohol spirits in a process that might require fuel.  To make things simpler, instead of having mash as a middle-product (this is not unthinkable when you realize how complicated soap making is...) you could simply have them turn brewed drinks into spirits at a ratio of say 3 barrels of the former to one barrel of the latter.  For instance, dwarven wine is brewed into dwarvish brandy, dwarven beer or ale brewed into whiskey, sunshine brewed into elvish cordial, etc. etc.

Just thought I would put that suggestion back in here... 

Yes, I realize I could easily mod this in with custom reactions or something.   If nothing else, I hope there will at least be a distinction between spirits and brewed drinks.  Spirits could even be used in medicine!!

Having brewing take place in the kitchen is an interesting idea. The kitchen is where I make wine and mead, after all. But I would expect Dwarves to build workshops dedicated to brewing, what with their passion for booze. As I suggested in one of the previous threads, there should be separate Brewery and Still workshops. Also, I think I may have commented on this in a previous thread, but "sunshine" always struck me as being related to "moonshine" and therefore a distilled beverage. Sunberry brandy, basically.

How about booze coming in flavored variants?  In the real world almost all beers are flavored with hops, and before hops were used there were a variety of herbs and berries which were used.  Dwarven beer made with only cave wheat could be "sweet dwarven beer", cave wheat + cave hops = "dwarven beer", and so on.  Allowable flavors, their names and prices would (probably) have to be specified in the raws, rather than being randomly generated like food recipes.

Plus, dwarves could have a preference for for a type of booze and a particular flavor of that booze. "Urist McDrunkard like dwarven wine and especially likes bush quarry flavored dwarven wine".

The mixture of herbs (which actually sometimes contained hops) is called "gruit". The purpose of gruit was to add/balance flavour, preserve the beer, and clarify the beer. Hops were found to be the most effective at preserving beer. If nothing is added, the beer tends to have a cloying flavour and a very short shelf life before it turns sour/funky.

My thoughts on this are to expand liquor varieties. Adding lager and making ale a type of beer. Also hard liquor and fuel for all booze-making.

The lager/ale dichotomy is a modern concept (and lager is a modern beer). The definition of "ale" and its distinction from "beer" is a bit complicated, since it has changed throughout history.  Old Norse "öl" and Anglo-Saxon "ealu" (cognates of ale) were the catch-all terms for fermented malt drinks (in other words, used the same as we use "beer") while Old Norse "bjorr" and Anglo-Saxon "beór" (probably cognates of beer) referred to a stronger drink, most likely cider, possibly sweetened with honey. In 15th century England, ale was unhopped and beer was hopped. It didn't take long for brewers to start using hops in ale as well, however. I'm not sure what I would suggest for the use of "ale" and "beer" in Dwarf Fortress.

I would certainly like to see liquor varieties expanded though, particularly with different combinations of ingredients. I might put together a list of drinks, the ingredients they require, their properties (shelf-life and aging potential) and what the distilled spirit would be called.

Edit: Also; not all alcohol should require water. There are some very cheap, disgusting forms of alcohol that are not made with any water, just fermenting juices and a yeast of some sort usually. Such things should probably have a high chance to cause ill effects in whoever drinks them (nausea, unconsciousness, etc.), but they should be an option for producing booze for your dwarves when you're lacking other options.

Also, very poor quality brewing should potentially cause severely bad effects, like blindness. That occurs when producing liquor without disposing of the waste of it. While highly alcoholic, the first stuff that comes out of a still is also insanely poisonous and has to be tossed away once it's done coming out (what comes next is the actual drinkable liquor that's less likely to kill you unless you drink way, way too much). Stills should maybe also produce fumes (and too close to a major heat source, like a forge, said fumes could ignite, if one wants to be real mean about it; though even the heat of the still can itself cause a very large explosion if the fumes are too thick; proper ventilation is extremely important).

Trace quantities of methanol (which causes blindness) are normal in most alcohol production. Moonshine that caused blindness was not the result of being poorly made, but rather of being adultered with methanol. The fusel oils that come out at the beginning of distillation are unpleasant and popularly believed to cause bad hangovers, but they won't kill you any more than ethanol.

Also, wine is not cheap and disgusting.

[Jake]

Regarding stoves and work surfaces etc. Wouldn't it also be a good idea to have an option to put those in individual quarters so that dwarves had the option of preparing their own food and hot drinks? Purchasing raw ingredients from the Head Chef noble could be cheaper, but dining out could provide a happy thought as a result.

[Waparius]

Regarding stoves and work surfaces etc. Wouldn't it also be a good idea to have an option to put those in individual quarters so that dwarves had the option of preparing their own food and hot drinks? Purchasing raw ingredients from the Head Chef noble could be cheaper, but dining out could provide a happy thought as a result.

Yes, though lazy dwarves should probably get an unhappy thought from having to do this themselves. Perhaps a "thrifty" or "hardworking" type dwarf would get an unhappy thought by contrast if they weren't able to do anything of the sort.

[aka010101]

All this talk of alcohol brings something to mind that currently does not exist, and to my knowledge hasn't been discussed ever: Mixed drinks.
Now, while as far as i know, they're a fairly recent invention, bear in mind that a society as dependent on booze as the dwarves, would probably develop them sooner. A practical use for them might be to stretch alcohol supplies, for example, Rum+fruit juice or water = grog. Which may really help a fortress low on brewable substances.

[TolyK]

All this talk of alcohol brings something to mind that currently does not exist, and to my knowledge hasn't been discussed ever: Mixed drinks.
Now, while as far as i know, they're a fairly recent invention, bear in mind that a society as dependent on booze as the dwarves, would probably develop them sooner. A practical use for them might be to stretch alcohol supplies, for example, Rum+fruit juice or water = grog. Which may really help a fortress low on brewable substances.

ding ding ding!
we've got a bright idea here!

[vadia]

Around 100 they kept wine in clay jars and it became like wine concentrate so everybody mixed water with wine.  It's probably too complicated to implement, but it's an idea for more time period flavor.

[Jake]

Around 100 they kept wine in clay jars and it became like wine concentrate so everybody mixed water with wine.  It's probably too complicated to implement, but it's an idea for more time period flavor.

Wouldn't be all that hard, given where we are with reactions at the moment; grog and small beer are certainly achievable in the current version, even if they'd be cheating a bit given the relative simplicity of making booze right now. And dwarves are going to start showing actual signs of intoxication in a future version, so having some relatively low-strength booze on hand might have advantages as well.
And speaking of which, religious prohibitions on certain food types should definitely extend to booze as well.

[vadia]

Around 100 they kept wine in clay jars and it became like wine concentrate so everybody mixed water with wine.  It's probably too complicated to implement, but it's an idea for more time period flavor.

Wouldn't be all that hard, given where we are with reactions at the moment; grog and small beer are certainly achievable in the current version, even if they'd be cheating a bit given the relative simplicity of making booze right now. And dwarves are going to start showing actual signs of intoxication in a future version, so having some relatively low-strength booze on hand might have advantages as well.
And speaking of which, religious prohibitions on certain food types should definitely extend to booze as well.

You misunderstand; wine concentrate = juice concentrate out of wine-- it was undrinkable and quite potent everybody had their own levels they prefferedAnd they had preferred temperatures.  We're talking about enough decisions to have a lowered fps each time a dwarf twants wine.