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Author Topic: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?  (Read 5689 times)

plynxis

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who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« on: November 03, 2010, 06:09:43 am »

so after my last fortress died a horrible fps death, i started a new one on an evil area (has the skeletal type wildlife, though that seems to be about the limit of its evil).

the primary creature in its fauna is skeletal horses. i dont know if its normal for areas like this, but normal horses and groundhogs appear as well, though when they leave the map, skeletal versions appear, usually horses (strangely there's also pixies and fairies sometimes, arent those good area creatures?)

naturally after a few ambushes and stuff the place is littered with goblin parts and equipment. so i let my dwarves out from the hatch to pick up all the stuff cause i dont want to die another fps death. the first times i avoided the skeletals - when they appeared i ran back inside. then i decided there was no way i'd pick up all the shit before there was more left so i tried to fight them - and got horribly slaughtered.

so i go into arena mode to try and figure out what equipment or skills might help my dwarves deal with them. after a few trials, i figured i need at least twice the dwarves, with full or nearly full iron armor and weapons, to fight skeletal horses and have noone die (even though about 2 of them get horribly butchered anyway, on average - that's for 3 horses and 6 dwarves). so i tried a grand master dwarf with full steel armor and weps. i pit him against a bunch of different monsters and he did awesome. even those that push him back and stunned him never hurt him - when he got the chance he slaughtered them easy.

so then i try the horses. i had several grand master dwarves around the place so i can try 1on1s many times. turns out, horses charge real hard and if the dwarf is lucky, the charges will stun him repeatedly and eventually he'll kill he undead horse. sometimes, the horse will hurt him real hard though, before it goes down. tried this both with long swords and war hammers (cause i wanted to have the shield too). and then there was this guy that had killed like 30 other random monsters and was even legendary in a few skills. i thought he'd own the horse easy, but no, whole bunch of weird monster kills under his belt without a scratch, but a skeletal horse? yeah he got horribly hurt even though he killed one.

so if a grand master with steel can own a bunch of weird shit and 1 skeletal horse with no skills can kick his ass, isnt there something a bit odd about it? i mean, i had a hydra against 3 horses and they hurt it, while the same hydra had killed a bunch of shit before just fine, no damage.

and i did check, they weren't tired either. the horses all had no skill levels or mistakenly placed equipment.

i'm not whining or anything really - i do think its part of the challenge to deal with this kind of thing and it is interesting tbh, but i am also interested in what other people think on this particular monster/animal (cause both skeletal and normal horses are kick ass strong).
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dogstile

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2010, 06:31:25 am »

Try and survive a horse kick in real life. Now make that horse skeletal, immune to pain, and therefore not worried about kicking its damn hardest. That's a skeletal horse.
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plynxis

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2010, 07:53:05 am »

i do agree real life horses kick ass hard but when werewolves, zombies, antmen, magma men and stuff dont compare as threats and when horses can hurt hydras when all of the above get their ass handed to them, i'd say the horse kick is a bit of a stretch. in any case, it kind of removes how much of a threat more bizarre monsters are and makes horses, a regular animal, a bit too hard to deal with.

granted my fort is only a few years old and i'm no master player, but i cant figure out a way to actually get rid of the horses at a regular basis without losing dwarves every time. not to mention sometimes they just respawn, so if the tantrum spirals dont get me, the rest of the horses will.
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Organum

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2010, 07:55:45 am »

And now you know why it's an evil zone.
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plynxis

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2010, 08:38:04 am »

true, yet the skeletal groundhogs are a joke and there's not much else that feels dangerous besides the skeletal horses, which are really just as dangerous as the normal ones. i'd have less of a problem if there were zombies kicking my ass, or vampires and shit like that. i mean, those are supposed to be hard to deal with as concepts. but horses are damn hard to kill when they're alive, only they dont attack you all the time. these assholes are hell. they can kick vampires to the shit. imagine the main villain in the headless horseman being his horse because it can kick real hard - just doesnt make sense to me.
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lastrix

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2010, 08:44:08 am »

i have never get any problem with them, just built a stable for them where they would never get out and PROFIT!!! Easy and fast.
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FleshForge

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2010, 09:12:57 am »

On the friendly side, bulls make very good door guards for the same reason.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2010, 09:14:51 am »

Their strength doesn't seem consistent, either; my militia walked all over more than a dozen of them before a handful completely wrecked them. Just in time for an ambush, too.
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plynxis

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 09:37:02 am »

Their strength doesn't seem consistent, either; my militia walked all over more than a dozen of them before a handful completely wrecked them. Just in time for an ambush, too.

so true - same thing i found in arena. i think its all about how they'll start an attack. they tend to charge and if that works out, they kick everyone's ass. i guess its a lot like how dwarves are though - sometimes they supplex giants.

On the friendly side, bulls make very good door guards for the same reason.

that didnt even cross my mind, i guess i should try it out. though its gonna be a headache protecting them from ambushes but oh well, cant have everything.

i have never get any problem with them, just built a stable for them where they would never get out and PROFIT!!! Easy and fast.

that seems like a pretty good solution, but its an extra challenge figuring out how to get them in the stable in the first place. its not like skeletal horses are gonna respond to treats and a hug. worth a try though
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Uzu Bash

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 09:56:44 am »

Huh. Corralling undead horses. I wish I'd thought of it, since killing them seems to only spawn more, sometimes immediately
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FleshForge

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 10:03:27 am »

Really if you think horses and camels and stuff are nasty, try undead elephants.  I hear undead whales are really horrible also.
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jellsprout

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 10:13:12 am »

From my experience with skeletal elephants, I can say that a single dwarf stands no chance against them. The elephant will attack, the dwarf will dodge, the elephant collides with the dwarf and this continues until the dwarf is dead. They have no chance to attack. But even as little as two trained dwarfs equipped in steel will kill an entire skeletal elephant herd in a a few moments. While one dwarf takes all the blows, the second rushes in and kills all the elephants in a single hit. I suspect the same also applies to horses.
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plynxis

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2010, 11:24:11 am »

From my experience with skeletal elephants, I can say that a single dwarf stands no chance against them. The elephant will attack, the dwarf will dodge, the elephant collides with the dwarf and this continues until the dwarf is dead. They have no chance to attack. But even as little as two trained dwarfs equipped in steel will kill an entire skeletal elephant herd in a a few moments. While one dwarf takes all the blows, the second rushes in and kills all the elephants in a single hit. I suspect the same also applies to horses.

well i did try it as i mentioned above, 3 horses, 6 dwarves, all decked in iron which i suppose should be enough for a skeletal horse (and i'm also trying to find a reasonably cheap solution to my immediate problem) and usually 2 of the 6 dwarves will get really badly hurt, which doesnt make for a good situation if any more horses spawn.

i mean, usually you can spare like 10 dwarves, but i dont think the numbers matter - the way the horses attack, you will get some of them hurt bad and getting to steel means there's gonna be a LOT of stuff lying around before you can pick it up - and even then its gonna take years probably.

that said, steel is suprisingly capable of keeping dwarves intact. most of the times i had dwarves decked in steel they got knocked around a lot, but usually, when they win, they win without a scratch.

i'm thinking of re-embarking, this time dropping some of the stuff i dont use anyway (like spare cloth and quivers and stuff that i dont use in this case anyway cause noone can walk in the open without getting buttfucked) and prepare a soldier dwarf with iron equipment (to maximize coverage). i dont know how much iron stuff costs and i'm assuming i'll at most get an iron shortsword and a helm but i'll look into it.

edit - yep, unless a hammer, a breastplate, a copper helm and a copper gauntlet make a true warrior, he's fucked - wont do much against any skeletal horse or elephant. problem is, i usually use trap fields to slaughter ambushes and they work really nice (like a 10x10 area closed with walls, containing a checkered pattern of weapon traps and spear traps, all fitted 10/10 with serrated blades, spears and spikes - nothing gets through) but here its hard to even get the wood to smelt the ores. i broke into the caverns early to get the underground trees to grow but they grow so goddamn slow - the underground plants on the other hand can easily replace my fields.

and btw, shouldn't making coke use up charcoal? last time, my guy made like 30+ coke without using a single unit of charcoal.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 11:36:25 am by plynxis »
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FleshForge

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2010, 11:46:01 am »

So you build a small wall and fortify as early as possible, it's not like you can't manage these with walls and traps.  If you still want hunting and fishing, there's tons of stuff to hunt in the caverns, and you can capture a section of river and some pools with your walls.  It doesn't really take much room to wall up some farm area also.  When you have some more serious armor and other gear manufactured, you can try to take back the surface if you still want to at that point.  If you embark with a working soil layer that will grow cavern stuff, you don't even have to farm or leave the caverns open at all, after you breach them, you can just dig out a large section of cavern and have a few herbalists running around picking shrooms, and you'll have plenty of wood.  Your only issue (not a very big one at that) is a safe entry, which you can pile traps in whatever variety and quantity you want.
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DukeOfVandals

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Re: who else thinks horses are a bit too strong?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2010, 12:38:52 pm »

Really if you think horses and camels and stuff are nasty, try undead elephants.  I hear undead whales are really horrible also.

And God-damned undead Great White Sharks. And Undead Marlins.

Stupid terrifying ocean.





And if you think horses are bad you should go pick a fight with an orangutan. I thought, "Meh, fully equipped in steel, legendary spear-dwarf, near-legendary fighter/shield-user, what's the worst that could happen?"

Not even a chance. Orangutan grabbed him, and just shook him around until all of the limbs were broken or had flung off.
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