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[backflip]

So, I've have a squad of 10 dwarves set with full leather armor (still working on steel) set to train with practice swords.  I've checked and they all wielded those weapons and armor properly.  They all had zip exp in swords, so I figured they'd all spar pretty regularly since they were at equal skill level.  I had them set to train non-stop for several seasons, and they performed/watched many demonstrations on striking and dodging, but I don't recall ever seeing them spar.

So of course when the filthy elves arrive they trigger an ambush on their way to my depot.  The goblins dispatch them and all but one goblin run into my cage traps.  I see just one gobbo left and think, eh, why not give them a little live practice.  Yes, they were still using their training swords and leather armor, but c'mon...  all 10 died easily to one goblin?  How is that possible?  Any why did they never train with the weapons they had, and just did dodging and striking (which didn't go up very much over almost 2 years time)?

Are danger rooms really the only way to get an effective military?

[bluephoenix]

No, I don't use danger rooms and have a very effective military.
You don't need to use practice weapons (they do almost no damage thats why your dwarves died), normal weapons don't do damage anymore when sparring.

[backflip]

Ah, good to know.  But I'm curious as to why they never actually trained with their weapons?  At least, if they did it wasn't very often or for very long, because none of them had any sword experience to speak of after all that time training.

[proxn_punkd]

Watching/performing demonstrations doesn't grant EXP, individual weapon drills and sparring do. Look for other threads on how to fix that. Training weapons are useless for almost anything-- woodcutters can use wooden axes, and danger rooms of course.

[Max White]

Think of this: The three stooges, but there are ten of them, given leather bondage gear and wooden sticks, against a cold blooded killer with metal armour and a realy big, sharp metal axe.

Not surprising the goblin won, realy.

[Brhino]

dwarves with zero skill in a particular weapon will never gain any skill with that weapon while on active duty.  You need to leave a squad of recruits inactive, which will cause them to engage in "individual combat drill"s, until they're novice level with the weapon.  At that point you can put them on active duty and they will progress from there.

Regardless, I've found that dwarves with little training and anything but the best equipment are very vulnerable in the current version of the game, even against individual goblins.

[Nilik]

Think of this: The three stooges, but there are ten of them, given leather bondage gear and wooden sticks, against a cold blooded killer with metal armour and a realy big, sharp metal axe.

Not surprising the goblin won, realy.

Woob woob woob!

[Rowanas]

Watching/performing demonstrations doesn't grant EXP, individual weapon drills and sparring do. Look for other threads on how to fix that. Training weapons are useless for almost anything-- woodcutters can use wooden axes, and danger rooms of course.

My search fu is weak but I'd like to know how to get round that. Care to explain?

[JarinArenos]

My search fu is weak but I'd like to know how to get round that. Care to explain?

I think this is what he meant:

dwarves with zero skill in a particular weapon will never gain any skill with that weapon while on active duty.  You need to leave a squad of recruits inactive, which will cause them to engage in "individual combat drill"s, until they're novice level with the weapon.  At that point you can put them on active duty and they will progress from there.

[kardwill]

Watching/performing demonstrations doesn't grant EXP, individual weapon drills and sparring do. Look for other threads on how to fix that. Training weapons are useless for almost anything-- woodcutters can use wooden axes, and danger rooms of course.

^

Mmh? Demonstrations seem to be working in my fort. Sure, they don't get much XP out of it, if the instructor is inexperienced, but :
- I saw two dwarves gain 200 XP in dodging after a course by my militia commander (who was weak in "teacher", but pretty good at warrior stuff, including "dodge"
- Dwarves in my combined-arms squads seem to get XP in their comrade's weapons (like a hammerdwarf with 12xp in swords, 49 in axes, etc...)
- All my military is slowly increasing in "teacher", "student" and "organiser", building up a force of future instructors.

So by my experience, training is slow, but it seems to work if you have a few instructors (experienced militarydwarves) in each squads to shakedown the rookie.
Weapon skills are less often trained than "dodge" or "strike", though. But it may be because some of my new weaponsdwarves started with good dodge skills, but poor weapon experience.

[Psieye]

Performing and Watching demonstrations basically shares EXP of the teacher to the students, at an efficiency dictated by the rather arcane skills called Teacher, Organiser, Student and Concentration. Regardless of what efficiency you get with dwarves that have no aptitude in those skills and who knows what mental stats... you won't get any EXP from a teacher who has no clue what he's talking about.

So basically, for 2 years your dwarves were bullshitting to each other on how to fight and come the real thing, they all died as they'd done nothing productive for 2 years and were wearing what may as well be several layers of jeans and denim shirts. Beating up wildlife is a better way to get up the first few rungs of combat skill levels.

[Rowanas]

Cheers. That was all, more or less, useful.

[Eugenitor]

Performing and Watching demonstrations basically shares EXP of the teacher to the students, at an efficiency dictated by the rather arcane skills called Teacher, Organiser, Student and Concentration. Regardless of what efficiency you get with dwarves that have no aptitude in those skills and who knows what mental stats... you won't get any EXP from a teacher who has no clue what he's talking about.

So basically, for 2 years your dwarves were bullshitting to each other on how to fight and come the real thing, they all died as they'd done nothing productive for 2 years and were wearing what may as well be several layers of jeans and denim shirts. Beating up wildlife is a better way to get up the first few rungs of combat skill levels.

Toady is such a god among men that he's managed to effectively simulate Bullshido. Holy shit.

[tolkafox]

Performing and Watching demonstrations basically shares EXP of the teacher to the students, at an efficiency dictated by the rather arcane skills called Teacher, Organiser, Student and Concentration. Regardless of what efficiency you get with dwarves that have no aptitude in those skills and who knows what mental stats... you won't get any EXP from a teacher who has no clue what he's talking about.

So basically, for 2 years your dwarves were bullshitting to each other on how to fight and come the real thing, they all died as they'd done nothing productive for 2 years and were wearing what may as well be several layers of jeans and denim shirts. Beating up wildlife is a better way to get up the first few rungs of combat skill levels.

A way around this is to embark with a competent ambusher/teacher, put him in an area with plenty of things to hunt and keep him stocked with wooden bolts. After he reaches legendary stats (or his teaching skills get rusty) put him in charge of a noob crossbow squad.

As for your melee either embark with another competent teacher with whatever profession you like or take your best teacher from your immigrant waves; give him some gear and put him in charge of a melee squad. I set up a 'gladiator' room and put cage traps in areas frequented by wild animals (like the front of my fort); put the cages with wild animals/disarmed gobbo's and let your squad leader go crazy on them. Someone told me it's a lot easier to train one experienced dwarf who can teach than train a whole squad on random animals, I've found this to be the best way outside of danger rooms.

A bit of trap humor:
The spinning -large serrated iron disk- strikes The Minotaur in the lower body tearing apart the skin!
The spinning -large serrated iron disk- strikes The Minotaur in the left lower leg tearing apart the skin!
The spinning -large serrated iron disk- strikes The Minotaur in the lower body and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Who needs a military when you have weapon traps with one -large serrated iron disk-?

[tolkafox]

Performing and Watching demonstrations basically shares EXP of the teacher to the students, at an efficiency dictated by the rather arcane skills called Teacher, Organiser, Student and Concentration. Regardless of what efficiency you get with dwarves that have no aptitude in those skills and who knows what mental stats... you won't get any EXP from a teacher who has no clue what he's talking about.

So basically, for 2 years your dwarves were bullshitting to each other on how to fight and come the real thing, they all died as they'd done nothing productive for 2 years and were wearing what may as well be several layers of jeans and denim shirts. Beating up wildlife is a better way to get up the first few rungs of combat skill levels.

A way around this is to embark with a competent ambusher/teacher, put him in an area with plenty of things to hunt and keep him stocked with wooden bolts. After he reaches legendary stats (or his teaching skills get rusty) put him in charge of a noob crossbow squad.

As for your melee either embark with another competent teacher with whatever profession you like or take your best teacher from your immigrant waves; give him some gear and put him in charge of a melee squad. I set up a 'gladiator' room and put cage traps in areas frequented by wild animals (like the front of my fort); put the cages with wild animals/disarmed gobbo's and let your squad leader go crazy on them. Someone told me it's a lot easier to train one experienced dwarf who can teach than train a whole squad on random animals, I've found this to be the best way outside of danger rooms.

A bit of trap humor:
The spinning -large serrated iron disk- strikes The Minotaur in the lower body tearing apart the skin!
The spinning -large serrated iron disk- strikes The Minotaur in the left lower leg tearing apart the skin!
The spinning -large serrated iron disk- strikes The Minotaur in the lower body and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Who needs a military when you have weapon traps with one -large serrated iron disk-?

Oh ya, using this method a legendary with competent teaching can teach 1-2 lvls per year, not sure if a higher combat lvl gives faster exp or if it's entirely based on the social skills because I've never had a squad leader who wasn't legendary.