Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5

Author Topic: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress  (Read 24871 times)

Dante

  • Bay Watcher
  • Dante likes cats for their corrupt intentions.
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2010, 07:33:07 pm »

Quote
Perhaps a [DESIRE_WEALTH:xx] and [DESIRE_GOODS:xx] tags.
This seems like a good first step. Along with civilisations valueing things more if they can actually use them. (Note it's not as simple as 'goblin goods = worthless', because it's possible to trade with goblins, and dwarf-sized things should be equally worthless to humans ...except when they can trade them on to elves, and this completely changes when you have many different sizes modded and different sized castes within a race etc etc)

Waparius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 08:19:00 pm »

The game really needs to automate trading a lot more.

One way of doing it would be to make it so that trade deals actually set what your trader is going to buy and sell next year. Make some kind of auto-program that measures the fort's desire for certain items and the caravan's desire for certain items, and have the trader auto-trade for those goods.

Then you can go and trade normally as well to see if you want something specific if you want, but otherwise you just go and negotiate another trade treaty and leave it at that.


Trade Treaties should also work differently. If they let you set your own offers to the merchants in the same way as you do requests, while also showing what the merchants actually want, it would make things run much more smoothly.

And there's also a use for coins in this system - if there aren't enough goods on offer and the fortress really wants items xyz, you should have the option to pay for it with coins instead of goods, as should the caravan.
Logged

Roflcopter5000

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2010, 12:44:44 am »

I think coinage as a commodity will start to become desirable for the same reasons it has historically... High value, low logistical over-head. Also, I can only imagine that the changes to the trade system will increase the amount of trade activity your fort experiences, which all the sudden gives you impetus to truly get interested in trading... And when you start moving massive amounts of goods around, storage space and weight start to be considerations. Hence, a natural push towards the use of coinage.
The eventual return of the dwarven economy will more or less force the return of currency as well. I like the idea of an abstracted currency backed by a physical stockpile for intra-fortress commerce very much. So much so that I didn't realize someone had already posted it, and made a thread about it ^_^. But, I would like to point out that you would have to factor in a few things for this system to work:
One, deciding if the player can use the currency (IE the administration could borrow from the dwarves), and b) if a dwarf no longer exists, what happens to those credits? And also, the physical coins that back them?

The racial differences thing seems a little silly for a few reasons. First off, dwarves are the industrial powerhouse of every generated fantasy world. They have the best stuff, the most raw materials, and the least reliance on outside trade. When the time comes to trade with other races, dwarves are going to be the race that takes an imperial attitude, if anyone would. In this fantasy world(s), along with most others, dwarven greed has always been an important component of what it means to be a dwarf. Therefore it makes absolute sense that dwarves would be the center of the economy. Also, dwarves move the heaviest goods around. Everything they make is metal or stone. They would definitely value the concept of currency highly. The value of currency in this fantasy world, as I see it, must be determined by the value of its associated metal. Nothing else makes any sense for the time period, really. Plus, I think coins should melt to form the exact amount of metal used to make them, unlike other things. It just makes sense.

Trade with other races -should- be focused more around the acquisition of random trinkets or trade goods then useful industrial goods. As the world currently stands, those races are basically lesser. Which I don't see changing any time before magic rolls around, to be honest. Humans have numbers, but no steel, and elves are a bunch of tree hugging-hippies. Even if you added in silly rare items that different organizations requested, those caravans wouldn't become any more interesting to trade with. Just more of a chore. I would say that human caravans would be a great source of food, and elves can sell you (awkwardly) wood and animals. You'd probably want to save your coins for when the dwarves roll through, so you can buy the stuff that matters (to dwarves).
Logged

Zrk2

  • Bay Watcher
  • Emperor of the Damned
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2010, 03:12:08 pm »

Very true.
Logged
He's just keeping up with the Cardassians.

Rowanas

  • Bay Watcher
  • I must be going senile.
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2010, 03:31:54 pm »

I'd like to point out that elves bringing you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth is essentially exactly the same thing as our forts shipping a bajillion microcline mugs. For just one year, try to match the vast array brought by the traders and you'll see why the elves only bring rope reed cloth.

Hypocrites.
Logged
I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

paladin_of_light

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2010, 07:36:36 pm »

I'd like to point out that elves bringing you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth is essentially exactly the same thing as our forts shipping a bajillion microcline mugs. For just one year, try to match the vast array brought by the traders and you'll see why the elves only bring rope reed cloth.

Hypocrites.


The odd thing is not that the elves attempt to sell you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth. The odd thing is that the traders will purchase a bajillion microcline mugs. Without affecting what mugs are worth to the merchants. After I buy all the cloth I need from the elves, the rest of the cloth becomes worthless to me, but mugs never become worthless to the elves.
Logged

Andeerz

  • Bay Watcher
  • ...likes cows for their haunting moos.
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2010, 08:59:08 pm »

I think it all should boil down to Dwarf (or elf or human or gobbo) psychology, and what determines someone's subjective idea of value.
Logged

Rowanas

  • Bay Watcher
  • I must be going senile.
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2010, 03:43:55 am »

I'd like to point out that elves bringing you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth is essentially exactly the same thing as our forts shipping a bajillion microcline mugs. For just one year, try to match the vast array brought by the traders and you'll see why the elves only bring rope reed cloth.

Hypocrites.


The odd thing is not that the elves attempt to sell you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth. The odd thing is that the traders will purchase a bajillion microcline mugs. Without affecting what mugs are worth to the merchants. After I buy all the cloth I need from the elves, the rest of the cloth becomes worthless to me, but mugs never become worthless to the elves.

Indeed. Hence why a proper (if simplistic) supply/demand simulation needs to be in. The other ways of controlling the economy 1) don't work as well. 2)Aren't as much fun and don't allow as much room for awesome gameplay.
Logged
I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

TolyK

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nowan Ilfideme
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2010, 12:32:42 pm »

I'd like to point out that elves bringing you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth is essentially exactly the same thing as our forts shipping a bajillion microcline mugs. For just one year, try to match the vast array brought by the traders and you'll see why the elves only bring rope reed cloth.

Hypocrites.


The odd thing is not that the elves attempt to sell you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth. The odd thing is that the traders will purchase a bajillion microcline mugs. Without affecting what mugs are worth to the merchants. After I buy all the cloth I need from the elves, the rest of the cloth becomes worthless to me, but mugs never become worthless to the elves.

Indeed. Hence why a proper (if simplistic) supply/demand simulation needs to be in. The other ways of controlling the economy 1) don't work as well. 2)Aren't as much fun and don't allow as much room for awesome gameplay.
This++
A "simple" supply-demand takes quite a bit of code, ask my dad who is writing an economic simulation program (and I'm a programmer too)
Logged
My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

Rowanas

  • Bay Watcher
  • I must be going senile.
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2010, 01:14:44 pm »

I'd like to point out that elves bringing you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth is essentially exactly the same thing as our forts shipping a bajillion microcline mugs. For just one year, try to match the vast array brought by the traders and you'll see why the elves only bring rope reed cloth.

Hypocrites.


The odd thing is not that the elves attempt to sell you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth. The odd thing is that the traders will purchase a bajillion microcline mugs. Without affecting what mugs are worth to the merchants. After I buy all the cloth I need from the elves, the rest of the cloth becomes worthless to me, but mugs never become worthless to the elves.

Indeed. Hence why a proper (if simplistic) supply/demand simulation needs to be in. The other ways of controlling the economy 1) don't work as well. 2)Aren't as much fun and don't allow as much room for awesome gameplay.
This++
A "simple" supply-demand takes quite a bit of code, ask my dad who is writing an economic simulation program (and I'm a programmer too)

I believe you, for I am something of a dabbling economist. If it were as simple as everyone makes out, we would have computers do all stock market trading, rather than people.

Still, for a game of DF's epic  and in-depth nature, it would be a crime to leave out what I perceive to be an essential part of making trading interesting.
Logged
I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

TolyK

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nowan Ilfideme
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2010, 01:43:10 pm »

well yeah exactly what I meant. although you technically *could* add in a simple system... I can already hear complains about it being unrealistic.
Logged
My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

thijser

  • Bay Watcher
  • You to cut down a tree in order to make an axe!
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2010, 02:14:28 pm »

I'd like to point out that elves bringing you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth is essentially exactly the same thing as our forts shipping a bajillion microcline mugs. For just one year, try to match the vast array brought by the traders and you'll see why the elves only bring rope reed cloth.

Hypocrites.


The odd thing is not that the elves attempt to sell you 400,000 pieces of rope reed cloth. The odd thing is that the traders will purchase a bajillion microcline mugs. Without affecting what mugs are worth to the merchants. After I buy all the cloth I need from the elves, the rest of the cloth becomes worthless to me, but mugs never become worthless to the elves.

Indeed. Hence why a proper (if simplistic) supply/demand simulation needs to be in. The other ways of controlling the economy 1) don't work as well. 2)Aren't as much fun and don't allow as much room for awesome gameplay.
This++
A "simple" supply-demand takes quite a bit of code, ask my dad who is writing an economic simulation program (and I'm a programmer too)

I believe you, for I am something of a dabbling economist. If it were as simple as everyone makes out, we would have computers do all stock market trading, rather than people.

Still, for a game of DF's epic  and in-depth nature, it would be a crime to leave out what I perceive to be an essential part of making trading interesting.
Actually the main reason we don't use computers for stock trading is basically because we can't completely predict what the supply/demand is going to be. If you know how much people want a certain item and how much people are putting it on the market you can get reasonably close to it's actual price.  Because the whole world is known to df it shouldn't be hard to model at all. 
The main problem is what is and what isn't on offer to a certain fortress/city/trade unit.
I think we should use make a travel map which is used to determine how much certain stocks count. So that a city on the other side of the world doesn't overly effect trade here. A good system would be to give each square a danger rating (which changes each time a trader is killed nearby). This is then used for a kind of pathfinder and that then counts the danger it had to pass and uses this to determine the price of a certain item(the more danger it had to pass the less that amount of supply/demand counts).
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 02:17:48 pm by thijser »
Logged
I'm not a native English speaker. Feel free to point out grammar/spelling mistakes. This way I can learn better English.

TolyK

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nowan Ilfideme
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2010, 03:18:00 pm »

Spoiler: lots of quotes (click to show/hide)
Actually the main reason we don't use computers for stock trading is basically because we can't completely predict what the supply/demand is going to be. If you know how much people want a certain item and how much people are putting it on the market you can get reasonably close to it's actual price.  Because the whole world is known to df it shouldn't be hard to model at all. 
The main problem is what is and what isn't on offer to a certain fortress/city/trade unit.
I think we should use make a travel map which is used to determine how much certain stocks count. So that a city on the other side of the world doesn't overly effect trade here. A good system would be to give each square a danger rating (which changes each time a trader is killed nearby). This is then used for a kind of pathfinder and that then counts the danger it had to pass and uses this to determine the price of a certain item(the more danger it had to pass the less that amount of supply/demand counts).
that is true. however, cpu drain if it occurs too often, so 1 time a month or something. however DF can know too much about the world. only what the trader knows should be in calculation. a bunch of relatively "simple" calculations could be used to calculate relative and absolute values of things, materials, etc.
Logged
My Mafia Stats
just do whatevery tolyK and blame it as a bastard mod
Shakerag: Who are you personally suspicious of?
At this point?  TolyK.

GreatWyrmGold

  • Bay Watcher
  • Sane, by the local standards.
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 09:47:48 pm »

Simplest model of s/d:

Every site and civ keeps track of what it has, how much it wants stuff, and how fast it uses/breaks/loses stuff. Go from there.
Logged
Sig
Are you a GM with players who haven't posted? TheDelinquent Players Help will have Bay12 give you an action!
[GreatWyrmGold] gets a little crown. May it forever be his mark of Cain; let no one argue pointless subjects with him lest they receive the same.

Demicus

  • Bay Watcher
  • The formless enigma
    • View Profile
Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 05:26:38 pm »

In my opinion, the way to make a supply and demand simulation is to work backwards in a way. Keeping in mind that the end result of it should be a numerical value the game can use to compare against other objects in trade, let's look into the components of supply and demand. What determines the Supply? That's more or less easy. It's a combination of stockpile, ability to be obtained, risk of obtaining, and probably a couple other factors I'm forgetting. So a quick bit of psuedo-code:
Code: [Select]
(Number_of_items*ease_of_obtain)/Risk_of_obtain
Not perfect, but a good jumping point I think.
Next is Demand, which is, honestly, a hell of the lot harder to do. A rough look at the components of Demand: Need (for jobs, survival, etc), luxury (how much the nobles want it/shiny), cultural demand(religion, social desires, fashion), and I think that might be a couple other points that generate demand. And each of those could potentially be broken down further, though I'll skip that for now, let someone else do some hard work. Most of those points though have to do with psychology. So an accurate idea of supply and demand requires getting into the dwarves heads and figuring out what they really want and need.
Logged
All shall embrace the unquenchable flame
Dwarf Fortress: The weak shall be culled, so the strong can have nicer socks.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5