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Author Topic: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress  (Read 24972 times)

Moon Label

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2013, 04:05:02 pm »

I have a few thoughts about the currency idea.  In the process of typing this, I've actually convinced myself against coins as a trade good.
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Firstly, in line with both rampant inflation, counterfeiting, and illegal printing, there should be incentives and demands on the amount of currency that your fortress mints.  Perhaps the liason or mayor/duke/king could even issue a minimum or maximum minting quota, as the situation demands, as you are just a fortress of a civilization and not an independent city-state (assuming friendly relations, of course).

Secondly, what if you exceed the minting quota or melt down to many coins which you imported?  Should your civ declare war upon your fortress, rather than minting coins with the civ's name and imagery, do you mint coins with your fortresses' name and imagery with their own demand and supply?

Third, what are the demands of the treasurer?  Should the mayor/duke/king demand a tresurer, and then the treasurer demand X amount of coins be minted?
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Urist McUselessNoble

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2013, 05:02:15 pm »

First, prices should not fluctuate that wildly. Second, money is not a commodity, and should not be treated as one.

Money is an expression of power.

Money is what happens when the government, a merchant's association, a banker, or some other suitably powerful institution writes down "this is worth 5 Urists" on some reasonably difficult to duplicate medium (silver was the popular choice historically).

The implication of this for the Dwarf Fortress trade mechanic is that your fortress should be able to mint whatever amounts of currency it (i.e. you) may desire, in whatever denominations are desired. However, your fortress' currency will only carry a markup above scrap value (a) inside your own fortress, where the Fortress Guard can visit extreme discomfort on those who disagree. (b) For people you export goods to, in rough proportion to your gross exports. And (c) for people who have to pay you tribute denominated in your currency (essentially those entities politically "downstream" of your own: Your barons if you are a county, everyone in your civ if you're the Mountainhome.

For added realism, the king should have a separate currency not under direct player control so you don't suddenly own the whole civ just because you are promoted to Mountainhome status. The king may allow any fortress (or just a few favored ones) the privilege of striking a certain number of coins of such-and-such denomination. (Perhaps gifts to the king would be paid for by such license.)

Your own fortress currency would be accepted at face value by all "downstream" entities (such as your hill dwarves), but only accepted at face value by "upstream" entities in proportion to your annual gross exports to your own civ, and only at ever steepening discounts when you go over their desired reserve levels. Within your civ, the king's currency would be universally accepted at face value. Foreign civs would accept the king's currency at face value in proportion to the gross annual exports to their civ, and at ever steepening discounts thereafter. Foreign civs would accept your currency at the value at which they accept your king's currency up to a reserve limit proportional to your annual exports to that civ, and at ever steepening discounts thereafter.
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PatriotSaint

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2013, 08:03:37 pm »

I thought you can refuse a Barony, making you basically independent, other than the gracious yearly caravans from the Mountainhome?

(not that I've gotten to that point yet, but that's what I've heard)
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Waparius

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2013, 08:48:58 pm »

I thought you can refuse a Barony, making you basically independent, other than the gracious yearly caravans from the Mountainhome?

(not that I've gotten to that point yet, but that's what I've heard)

IIRC in some talk or other it was mentioned that that could provoke a war with the Mountainhome. It needn't affect your own trades with downstream entities, and trades with those outside of your own civ (including, eg, equal-and-higher-ranking forts within your parent civilisation) wouldn't be all that affected either; you'd just have to conquer or build up more places of lower economic rank than your own fortress.

And of course it likely wouldn't affect the value of the mountainhome coins you've already obtained via purchase or whatever, at least beyond the merchants maybe adding some kind of traitors' tax. It should be possible to stock up other civ's coins as well, for similar benefits, and throw in money-changers for migrants, travellers, mercenaries and the like.

Though weren't merchants more likely to just trade in commodities anyhow rather than carry around huge sacks of (stealable) gold everywhere?
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Urist McUselessNoble

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2013, 12:38:55 pm »

Though weren't merchants more likely to just trade in commodities anyhow rather than carry around huge sacks of (stealable) gold everywhere?
Yes and no, and depending on which era and trade bloc you are talking about.

In the early Renaissance (which is roughly the Dwarf Fortress tech level), merchants would generally "draw bills" when dealing at a wholesale level. A bill of exchange was essentially a note saying "Urist McMerchant is obligated to pay Bomrek McMerchant 2000 Dorfbucks for services rendered." The bill is said to have been "drawn upon" Urist McMerchant, and "accepted" by Bomrek McMerchant.

Bomrek McMerchant would then go to his suppliers in turn, and sign over the bill to them, by adding a note to the bill, saying "Bomrek McMerchant hereby transfers this note to Elfy McTreehugger, in payment for services rendered." And so the note would go round and round until either one of the recipients called it in for currency, or (more commonly) it found its way to someone who wanted to do business with Urist McMerchant (or owed him money). Once back in Urist McMerchant's hands, the bill would be canceled.

The trick here is that if Elfy McTreehugger called in the bill and Bomrek McMerchant defaulted on his debt, Elfy McTreehugger could go after Urist McMerchant - because Urist owed Bomrek money, and Bomrek owed Elfy money. This meant that a bill of exchange which had a whole daisy-chain of endorsers (people who had previously been the final creditor but signed it over) was a very secure (and therefore highly liquid) instrument.

(If you are right now imagining creative ways to make pyramid scams with such bills, then you get a cookie.)

Now, if you are in the foreign trade, it may be impractical for your suppliers to collect from you. However, you could draw a bill upon your bank instead: Deposit money at the bank, and then use the receipt as a bill of exchange. Then your bill would be not against your faith and credit alone, but against your bank's and your own both. And if your bank does business both in your home port and in the foreign port in which you trade, then (assuming it is a creditable bank), a bill drawn upon it will be as good as cash to anybody in the foreign port who owes the bank money. And even if your bank only does business in your own home port, its bills will still be very nearly as good as cash to those who do regular business in your home port - for they will have plenty of occasion to visit your home port and cash it in.

And that's how wholesalers would avoid holding huge cash positions (which, at the discount rates of the time, was very expensive, even aside from the risk of theft).

Retailers would generally allow their (creditable) customers to run up a tab, and only require occasional settlement, which could be in kind, in cash or by netting out some complicated daisy chain of obligations. Recall that before the great urbanization wave of the early industrial era, most merchants knew most of their customers, and their customers were largely unable to skip town on their tab (except for drifters and known delinquents, who were consequently denied credit).

"In God we trust, all others pay cash" is very much a modern (as in post industrial revolution) maxim. In earlier times, cash settlement was the exception rather than the norm.
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Moon Label

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2013, 09:27:39 pm »

The implication of this for the Dwarf Fortress trade mechanic is that your fortress should be able to mint whatever amounts of currency it (i.e. you) may desire, in whatever denominations are desired. However, your fortress' currency will only carry a markup above scrap value (a) inside your own fortress, where the Fortress Guard can visit extreme discomfort on those who disagree. (b) For people you export goods to, in rough proportion to your gross exports. And (c) for people who have to pay you tribute denominated in your currency (essentially those entities politically "downstream" of your own: Your barons if you are a county, everyone in your civ if you're the Mountainhome.
...
Your own fortress currency would be accepted at face value by all "downstream" entities (such as your hill dwarves), but only accepted at face value by "upstream" entities in proportion to your annual gross exports to your own civ, and only at ever steepening discounts when you go over their desired reserve levels.
...
Foreign civs would accept your currency at the value at which they accept your king's currency up to a reserve limit proportional to your annual exports to that civ, and at ever steepening discounts thereafter.
I don't see the gameplay advantage of minting your own fortress currency. I do agree that you should be able to mint your own local fortress currency for purposes of immersion, play experience, and a more portable post-mortem/post-retirement fotress legacy.

For added realism, the king should have a separate currency not under direct player control so you don't suddenly own the whole civ just because you are promoted to Mountainhome status. The king may allow any fortress (or just a few favored ones) the privilege of striking a certain number of coins of such-and-such denomination. (Perhaps gifts to the king would be paid for by such license.)
...
Within your civ, the king's currency would be universally accepted at face value. Foreign civs would accept the king's currency at face value in proportion to the gross annual exports to their civ, and at ever steepening discounts thereafter.
I tried getting at that by the minting quota.  The player needs a reasonable way to obtain or make civ currency, but not so much as to remove control from the parent civ.  What if, when you offer goods to your civ's caravan, their next caravan returns with a certain fraction of the offering's value in civ currency?, or permits currency production up to that fraction?
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Quote from: Toady One on May 10, 2007, 10:59:00 pm
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Urist McUselessNoble

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2013, 03:56:45 pm »

I don't see the gameplay advantage of minting your own fortress currency. I do agree that you should be able to mint your own local fortress currency for purposes of immersion, play experience, and a more portable post-mortem/post-retirement fotress legacy.
The way I put it, it is a flexible way to extract tribute from entities downstream of you in the chain of command. Your tributaries will accept your currency at face value, enabling you to accrue seigniorage from them in amounts only limited by their actual surplus production.

I tried getting at that by the minting quota. The player needs a reasonable way to obtain or make civ currency, but not so much as to remove control from the parent civ.  What if, when you offer goods to your civ's caravan, their next caravan returns with a certain fraction of the offering's value in civ currency?, or permits currency production up to that fraction?
Yes, a minting quota for the King's currency will do this for you.

There is just no reason for the king's currency to be the only currency in the land. That would be a complete anachronism for the feudal system we see elsewhere in DF.
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darknessofthenight

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2013, 05:12:49 pm »

personally, i would be interested in backing currency in nontraditional ways. for example after your fortress acquired a reputation for being trustworthy you might be able to trade away a set of 500 iron coins backed by a masterwork gold chair, while still keeping the chair for use.
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Urist McUselessNoble

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Re: Caravan Arc Suggestions: My idea of economy in Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2013, 05:30:38 pm »

In the final analysis, all currency is backed by organized violence. Nothing more and nothing less.

Posting collateral does not change this fact: The creditor will still require organized violence to make the delinquent debtor actually part with the collateral in question.
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