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Author Topic: A Better Magma Pump Stack  (Read 100111 times)

NecroRebel

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2010, 01:11:38 pm »

Couldn't you easily verify the theory about temperature by just turning it off on a traditional pump stack?
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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yes. Yes you could.

Now why didn't I think of that?  :-[ Unfortunately, I still don't have a suitable fort with which to test these things at the moment, so testing that will have to wait a while.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 01:14:07 pm by NecroRebel »
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A Better Magma Pump Stack: For all your high-FPS surface-level magma installation needs!

gtmattz

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2010, 02:57:55 pm »

I like this!

I had wondered a few times why the magma stacks always seemed to kill my FPS way more than water, I don't know why I did not consider temperature as the culprit!

I am going to see if I have any working magma stacks to test turning temp on and off so as to add some supporting !!SCIENCE!! to this.
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Just try it! Its not like you die IRL if Urist McMiner falls into magma.

Sutremaine

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2010, 04:06:11 pm »

=====
=+++=
==.==

==+==
==.==
=====


Red squares are kept warm at all times. Basically, it's just a standard pump stack with the single output tile extended into a 3x1 reservoir. Magma fills the 2 extra cross tiles on the T-shape, and those two magma-filled tiles keep the tiles next to the pumping tile on the same z-level warm, reducing required temperature recalculations just as the version I posted last night. This version would be very easy to retrofit as well; just dig or channel out those extra tiles on every level, then let each level fill.

Do those extra cross tiles stay filled in this design, though?  Each pump is outputting to the intake tile of the pump above, so it will be sucked up before it has a chance to spread to the cross tiles.  Meanwhile, fluid from the cross tiles will spread to the intake tile, and eventually be depleted.
How about building the pump stack so that it's always on, but the on / off switch is linked to a floodgate at the output tile of the top pump? But perhaps that would only delay the depletion of the cross tiles. If that's the case, then splitting the stack's time between output and refilling would keep the tile temperatures within the stack constant.

Code: [Select]
                 *
                %%^X
pump stack <-777####

X = floodgate connected to on / off switch
Pressure plate connected to gear; engages gear at magma levels 0/7 to 6/7
Pump stack itself is always powered
In theory this would cause the area beyond the floodgate to fill in pulses, with the non-filling periods never being long enough to force extra temperature calculations. In practice (assuming the theory is correct) it may be better to allow the output tile to drop to 5/7 to give the stack adequate time to refill.

I might or might not have gotten the values for the pressure plates the wrong way round, as I haven't touched DF since April. :)
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squeakyReaper

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2010, 05:42:39 pm »

While not terribly efficient, I guess an "off" switch could be a flood gate built in to the side of each one.  Have two pits going down, back into the magma sea, so that when you open the flood gate the magma falls into one of the two pits.  The magma would EVENTUALLY go into the magma sea.  Still much slower than a typical magma pumpstack's off switch, but eh.

=====
=+++===
=+++X.=
=+++===
==%====
==%==.=
==.====
=====

=====
==.====
==%==.=
==%====
=+++===
=+++X.=
=+++===
=====
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LealNightrunner

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2010, 12:52:28 am »

The one concern I have about draining a magma pump stack like that is that all that magma that's flowing off (and presumably down back to the sea, or wherever you're pumping it from) has been pressurized by at least part of the magma pump stack, and may risk bubbling up through other unintended openings.
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Xenos

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 01:04:16 am »

The one concern I have about draining a magma pump stack like that is that all that magma that's flowing off (and presumably down back to the sea, or wherever you're pumping it from) has been pressurized by at least part of the magma pump stack, and may risk bubbling up through other unintended openings.
Magma doesnt pressurize like water does.  It just moves really fast on one z-level. 
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
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doomdome

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2010, 10:57:05 pm »

The one concern I have about draining a magma pump stack like that is that all that magma that's flowing off (and presumably down back to the sea, or wherever you're pumping it from) has been pressurized by at least part of the magma pump stack, and may risk bubbling up through other unintended openings.
Magma doesnt pressurize like water does.  It just moves really fast on one z-level.
It pressurizes when it goes through a pump, though... and pump stacks are made of pumps.
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NecroRebel

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2010, 11:16:06 pm »

How about building the pump stack so that it's always on, but the on / off switch is linked to a floodgate at the output tile of the top pump? But perhaps that would only delay the depletion of the cross tiles. If that's the case, then splitting the stack's time between output and refilling would keep the tile temperatures within the stack constant.

Code: [Select]
                 *
                %%^X
pump stack <-777####

X = floodgate connected to on / off switch
Pressure plate connected to gear; engages gear at magma levels 0/7 to 6/7
Pump stack itself is always powered
In theory this would cause the area beyond the floodgate to fill in pulses, with the non-filling periods never being long enough to force extra temperature calculations. In practice (assuming the theory is correct) it may be better to allow the output tile to drop to 5/7 to give the stack adequate time to refill.

I might or might not have gotten the values for the pressure plates the wrong way round, as I haven't touched DF since April. :)
Hmm... Maybe. Probably better to use a door (or hatch over the last pump's input) so it's quicker to switch on/off when it needs to. Another thing to try out.

It pressurizes when it goes through a pump, though... and pump stacks are made of pumps.
Magma only pressurizes while the pumps are running. Magma "pressure" in Dwarf Fortress is more just magma new teleporting to the end of the magma-filled area, so if there's no new magma coming in due to the pumps being off, no pseudo-pressure exists.
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A Better Magma Pump Stack: For all your high-FPS surface-level magma installation needs!

Sutremaine

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2010, 12:02:16 am »

Probably better to use a door (or hatch over the last pump's input) so it's quicker to switch on/off when it needs to.[/quote]
And also to make the pressure plate accessible should the triggers need to be tweaked. Yes, that would be a lot better.
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I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

NaziBad

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2010, 09:20:13 pm »

What is with your code? Shouldn't it look like this:
=====
=+++=
=+++=
=+++=
==%==
==%==
== . ==
=====

=====
== . ==
==%==
==%==
=+++=
=+++=
=+++=
=====

of course, with the channels, represented by dot, in each diagram being the same ones, just on the next level down or up?
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Igawa

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2010, 10:06:36 pm »

You sir, definitely deserve a wiki spot for this! :)


#####     #####
#+++#     ##.##
##%##     ##%##
##%##     ##%##
##.##     #+++#
#####     #####

This is the general layout for an 'ideal' floating pump stack (least space used, least flows, least mechanisms). As stated before though it may have problems with magma staying in the side pockets. One possible workaround is to build from the bottom up and 'prime' each input/output layer as you go with a pump operator. Perhaps no magma needs to be in the stack, even, and the 'priming' is done solely to desynchronize the whole stack, which *may* lead magma to fill the side pockets. This will almost certainly be more micromanagement in the construction phase, as no pumps in the middle can be pre-built (as with any floating stack, but extra delay in between placing pumps due to getting some lazy dorf to the finished pump), but you can still desync the stack from both the top and the bottom and then link them in the middle. Or hey, power/pump the whole stack WHILE building (can be very dangerous fun). Then, each pump layer built is already desynchronized.

If the numbers people are posting are true, then there's already no doubt that you need some extra magma floating around in your pump system. Now the question is how little can you get away with, and how simple can you make the stack. Does the magma in the side pockets NEED to be 7/7 to heat the tiles above it? Is there a difference between 7/7 and 1/7 for heating the side walls and floor? Can something simple like desynchronizing your stack provide the means to solve this problem?

Just my thoughts on implementing this newfound knowledge to an old engineering standard.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 10:11:54 pm by Igawa »
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The Phoenixian

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2010, 11:12:27 pm »

...Dangit I knew that idea was too good to be unclaimed.

Anyways, Under "brilliantly stupid" you could solve the cleanup problems by replacing the floors with hatches (or more likely bridges) and channeling out the sides of the uptake tiles.

Code: [Select]
Like so:

#####     #####
##     #...#
##%##     ##%##
##%##     ##%##
#...#     ##
#####     #####

It's a clowncar of a lot of work though.
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Igawa

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2010, 11:20:56 pm »

The biggest weakness with using hatches is that if you screw up and a hatch (plus mechanism) isn't magma safe, you end up nuking your whole stack below the level of the hatch (because a floating stack is technically in one single space). Also, aside from the workload to rig all the hatches, you might get unlucky when you 'drop' the magma down, and it will go sideways and down instead of straight down and nuke a pump.

Best way to empty a stack is shut off the intake and pump all the excess out the output end.
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Trouserman

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2010, 11:22:52 pm »

Does the magma in the side pockets NEED to be 7/7 to heat the tiles above it?

No.  I was filling a magma reservoir to heat a seasonally frozen pool, recently, and it in fact it only melted the pool while it was filling.  The pool would sporadically refreeze, and then melt again.  Next winter, when the reservoir was 7/7 full, the pool froze and has not been reheated.  So heating seems more related to magma movement than to any particular depth.
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NecroRebel

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Re: A Better Magma Pump Stack
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2010, 11:27:37 pm »

What is with your code? Shouldn't it look like this:

-snip-

of course, with the channels, represented by dot, in each diagram being the same ones, just on the next level down or up?
It's because I decided to use the [ code ] tags to ensure that every character was the same width, which is often beneficial for creating diagrams so every column of chracters is actually lined up. I probably should've used the [ tt ] teletype tags, which have the same effect but don't put them in a seperate window and so don't shrink everything, but oh well.

You sir, definitely deserve a wiki spot for this! :)

This is the general layout for an 'ideal' floating pump stack (least space used, least flows, least mechanisms). As stated before though it may have problems with magma staying in the side pockets. One possible workaround is to build from the bottom up and 'prime' each input/output layer as you go with a pump operator. Perhaps no magma needs to be in the stack, even, and the 'priming' is done solely to desynchronize the whole stack, which *may* lead magma to fill the side pockets. This will almost certainly be more micromanagement in the construction phase, as no pumps in the middle can be pre-built (as with any floating stack, but extra delay in between placing pumps due to getting some lazy dorf to the finished pump), but you can still desync the stack from both the top and the bottom and then link them in the middle. Or hey, power/pump the whole stack WHILE building (can be very dangerous fun). Then, each pump layer built is already desynchronized.
Powering the stack while it's being built isn't actually dangerous, as the magma chambers on each layer are of course sealed anyway. If you've got leaks, it's actually probably safer to have just the one level leaking at once instead of all of them suddenly starting when you finally start the whole thing up, so when practical running power to the bottom level is probably a good idea.

Quote
If the numbers people are posting are true, then there's already no doubt that you need some extra magma floating around in your pump system. Now the question is how little can you get away with, and how simple can you make the stack. Does the magma in the side pockets NEED to be 7/7 to heat the tiles above it? Is there a difference between 7/7 and 1/7 for heating the side walls and floor? Can something simple like desynchronizing your stack provide the means to solve this problem?
When I started the design up for the first time, it didn't immediately fill each reservoir all the way, so there were 1/7 magma tiles on many levels. I noticed no increase in FPS between the first time I ran it when it wasn't 100% full and the second time when it was, so it's probably just a matter of "is magma present in adjacent tiles?," not "how much magma?"

...Dangit I knew that idea was too good to be unclaimed.

Anyways, Under "brilliantly stupid" you could solve the cleanup problems by replacing the floors with hatches (or more likely bridges) and channeling out the sides of the uptake tiles.

-snip-

It's a clowncar of a lot of work though.
Yeah, most means of draining magma reservoirs in general take a fair amount of effort, and this design of course makes it so that there are dozens. It's tricky and dangerous work, but then again everything involving magma is.



Also, I've now done a bit of tentative testing on the 2x3 head-over-head reservoir design, and found no significant FPS drop while it was running (it filled the magma forge works quickly, so hard to say how it'd work in the long run). It appears to work just as well as the original 3x3 design, as Trouserman's and my theorizing earlier suggested it would.
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A Better Magma Pump Stack: For all your high-FPS surface-level magma installation needs!
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