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Author Topic: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution  (Read 139201 times)

Draco18s

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #480 on: June 12, 2017, 07:51:05 am »

Not exactly an update, but I've been playing Rune Factory 4, and it actually implements soil nutrient data in a simplistic manner, although it does so in a way that generally requires you deal with it, manually.  Still, it makes for interesting material to look at and see in practice, since this sort of thing isn't commonly in games.

The only problem I have with a system like that is that there's no inherent mechanic that encourages crop rotation. Seems to me that every crop depletes one or more aspects of the soil and the only way to raise it again is to use fertilizer.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think fertilizer is a great thing to have and use, but I like the "gamey" feel that crop rotation gives to things.
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LordBaal

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #481 on: June 12, 2017, 08:04:50 am »

Well, I think we should have both options and let people use what they want.
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Draco18s

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #482 on: June 12, 2017, 10:34:31 am »

Well, I think we should have both options and let people use what they want.

Considering that the NPK method is already both...
That is, it supports both the mechanisms of "use fertilizer, get bigger harvests" and "use crop rotation, get bigger harvests."

Supporting two different incompatible data types doesn't seem like a thing Toady plans on doing.

The only thing about the method NW_Kohaku posted that is beneficial is splitting up the data storage across several tiles. That's actually a really clever thing to do. No arguments.
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LordBaal

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #483 on: June 12, 2017, 01:02:34 pm »

NPK?
North Popular Korea?
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Draco18s

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #484 on: June 12, 2017, 02:33:56 pm »

Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium.
Potassium's elemental symbol is K (Kalium).
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LordBaal

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #485 on: June 12, 2017, 05:05:44 pm »

I though it was a mod or something already on the game.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
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Draco18s

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #486 on: June 13, 2017, 09:27:52 pm »

Good job on you not reading back a page or two to see that NW_Kohaku has used the abbreviation at least twice.

"simulationist NPK model"
"...you're trying to argue against "NPK" in favor of "CN" because..."

I get it, it's a 33 page long thread and you didn't read all of it, but that was the bit that jumped out and demanded questioning?
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LordBaal

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #487 on: June 14, 2017, 04:22:23 am »


Yes I would Draco.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #488 on: June 15, 2017, 12:00:53 am »

NPK?
North Popular Korea?

The NPK model is covered in this post.

Also, super-concise TL;DR version is found here.

On the first page, I tried to create a set of hypertext links as a "Table of Contents" to keep things as easy to read as anything of this size can be.


The only problem I have with a system like that is that there's no inherent mechanic that encourages crop rotation. Seems to me that every crop depletes one or more aspects of the soil and the only way to raise it again is to use fertilizer.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think fertilizer is a great thing to have and use, but I like the "gamey" feel that crop rotation gives to things.

Well, it's not that I am proposing copying Rune Factory 4's model, I'm just saying it's a model that actually exists in a game, and one made mostly for "casual gamers", which directly goes at the heart of one of the most significant arguments against the NPK model I've been pushing from the start of this thread.  People have been saying that anything more than two or three soil variables would be too much complexity, but in Rune Factory, you have a 7-variable soil quality system that is only a moderate impediment on players planting whatever they want.  Seeing an actual example of a similar system in action is a valuable thing, since it gives you some concrete feedback as to how the player will respond to the impact of certain design choices.

It's not something that I have to go really far out of my way to micromanage (at least, no more than I already was in a game where I plant and harvest all the crops, myself), but it does have at least some impact on my choices, since I've had situations where I slammed head-first into 0 soil HP after planting a lot of strawberries in a single patch, and had to fallow that square for a few days before I could even grow corn I could plow in to recover the soil completely, and put back into service.

In fact, outside of trying to get the giant crops (which requires planting four of the same crops in that 2x2 area at the same time so that they "merge" into a multi-tile crop) it means that you pretty much just have one tile for corn/clover, one tile for heavy-feed a repeat harvest crop like strawberries or pumpkins, and two tiles for single-harvest crops (at least one of which you might want to make a light feeder).  It's not exactly a "crop rotation", but it does encourage the player to at least spread out their use of the soil unless they're capable and willing to carpet-bomb the soil with fertilizers.

A huge difference between what I've been arguing for here, and what's in Rune Factory 4, however, is that the soil variables in Rune Factory 4 are far more segregated and distinct.  A Formula A will add 0.5 to the growth speed multiplier, and nothing else.  The "size" variable does absolutely nothing if you aren't going for a giant vegetable.  You can have crops hypothetically capable of growing at quintuple speed, but nothing grows because soil is at 0 HP.  My proposed system has fertilizers that impact multiple variables, and variables that are more inter-dependent.  If things work as I want them to, that means that the player will have a less concrete idea of what is going on in the soil (especially since Toady isn't going to just put overtly gamey things like "the soil has 105/255 HP left", and instead have something like a "the soil is chalky and pale" to denote levels of biomass) but at the same time, won't necessarily need such a concrete idea in their day-to-day operation of farms.  (Especially since farm overseers apply the fertilizers, themselves, meaning that players are mostly concerned with not running out of fertilizers or ordering crop schedules that consume inordinate amounts of fertilizers.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 12:03:29 am by NW_Kohaku »
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Improved Farming
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Bumber

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #489 on: June 15, 2017, 01:16:07 am »

"Health" (or "HP") - This is more like the biomass/carbon level of the soil.  HP is abused when harvesting, especially multi-harvest crops, and if it hits 0, nothing grows or can be harvested until it rises again.  Incidentally, stats only drop when you harvest a crop, so threshing crops for seeds or destroying crops before they can be harvested keeps the soil quality high.

"Defense" - Reduces HP loss when you harvest.
Also used by hurricane damage.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #490 on: June 22, 2017, 01:16:19 pm »

It is actually rather important given our subterranean lifestyle as dwarves the nutrient factors that control the growth of fungi, as opposed to the growth of surface plants.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #491 on: June 22, 2017, 05:32:13 pm »

It is actually rather important given our subterranean lifestyle as dwarves the nutrient factors that control the growth of fungi, as opposed to the growth of surface plants.

Subterranean life is a major component of the discussions, especially in the spin-off "Xenosynthesis" threads.

As a basic assumption, either subterranean "plants" are decomposers (which means that they consume the biomass stat, which takes constant composting of fresh dead biologicals), or they are magical plants that draw their energy from a magical energy source other than the sun, yet still take the same basic elements of Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium that surface plants do.  (They hypothetically could feed on other elements, but you wouldn't be able to eat a silicon-based lifeform built on incompatible compounds instead of proteins, so they'd be unsuitable for farming, anyway.)

Beyond that, it's a discussion of how to make magic biomes function in a way that makes sense and preserves the game's intended fantasy feel, which has been one of the longer-running discussions of this concept, since it's also the one that's obviously untethered from reality and also implicitly becomes an argument about how "magical" Dwarf Fortress should be.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #492 on: June 25, 2017, 01:40:43 pm »

It is actually rather important given our subterranean lifestyle as dwarves the nutrient factors that control the growth of fungi, as opposed to the growth of surface plants.

Subterranean life is a major component of the discussions, especially in the spin-off "Xenosynthesis" threads.

As a basic assumption, either subterranean "plants" are decomposers (which means that they consume the biomass stat, which takes constant composting of fresh dead biologicals), or they are magical plants that draw their energy from a magical energy source other than the sun, yet still take the same basic elements of Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium that surface plants do.  (They hypothetically could feed on other elements, but you wouldn't be able to eat a silicon-based lifeform built on incompatible compounds instead of proteins, so they'd be unsuitable for farming, anyway.)

Beyond that, it's a discussion of how to make magic biomes function in a way that makes sense and preserves the game's intended fantasy feel, which has been one of the longer-running discussions of this concept, since it's also the one that's obviously untethered from reality and also implicitly becomes an argument about how "magical" Dwarf Fortress should be.

Having them use some mysterious energy source completely messes up the whole ecosystem.  As in, the underground plants will take over the surface since the underground energy source is more plentiful than the sun.

So I favor the decomposer approach to underground plants.
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Bumber

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #493 on: June 27, 2017, 01:24:10 am »

Having them use some mysterious energy source completely messes up the whole ecosystem.  As in, the underground plants will take over the surface since the underground energy source is more plentiful than the sun.
How are they going to take over the surface when the energy source is underground? They might even be completely unfit for surface survival.
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GoblinCookie

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #494 on: June 28, 2017, 10:50:28 am »

How are they going to take over the surface when the energy source is underground? They might even be completely unfit for surface survival.

Because surface plants are already partly underground, as in the roots; since the roots are underground they themselves 'collect' mysterious underground energy.  As for the completely unfit for surface survival, the question is rather backwards.  Why would surface plants remain surface plants when there is all that underground energy to collect, remember that symbiosis (as in lichen) with underground organisms is a possibility in the event they lack the native ability to exploit such energy.
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