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Author Topic: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution  (Read 138752 times)

Andeerz

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #285 on: May 03, 2012, 04:50:52 pm »

NW_Kohaku:

Awesome.  In that case, I have no qualms.  From how you describe how things will be modeled, agriculture would end up taking up about as much land as it would in real life.

I'd like to emphasize something, though. 


Simply tilling everything into one giant patch of wheat for a single staple crop was what they did largely because wheat was the most easily traded crop, and the easiest to store for long periods of time.  Wheat actually takes more land to feed the same amount of people than growing vegetables does, and many medieval farmers would actually subsist on smaller vegetable gardens and a small orchard of fruit trees for much of the year, and only use bread to get through the winter, along with the few winter crops they could still grow (like onions or turnips or other root vegetables, and potatoes once they were brought back from South America).

I have some doubts about some of what you say here.  I'd wager the two big reasons for use of grains like wheat are the storage thing and, more importantly, that wheat and other grains are MUCH MUCH MUCH more energy rich than most vegetables (compare, for example, 1 cup of wheat grain = 600+ calories, whereas 1 cup of fava beans is around 250 or so calories and turnips is less than 50 calories... and before you say anything about protein content, non-refined, whole wheat contains about as much protein as beans).  I mean, that's not to downplay the importance of other vegetable crops in the middle ages (in ANY culture), but beans, carrots, nuts, and leafy greens supplemented what was (and still is for most of the world) a grain based diet, and their consumption was always secondary to consumption of grains for the most part regardless of time of year.  Also, yields of fruit orchards are dismal compared to the yields of equivalent areas of grain crops, especially during the middle ages.  And I seriously doubt your statement that it takes more land to feed people with wheat than other non-grain plants.  Do you have the source?  This really interests me.

Well, that's the only nitpick I felt I had to make.  But, yeah.  Frikkin' sweet regardless!
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #286 on: May 03, 2012, 06:11:02 pm »

I have some doubts about some of what you say here.  I'd wager the two big reasons for use of grains like wheat are the storage thing and, more importantly, that wheat and other grains are MUCH MUCH MUCH more energy rich than most vegetables (compare, for example, 1 cup of wheat grain = 600+ calories, whereas 1 cup of fava beans is around 250 or so calories and turnips is less than 50 calories... and before you say anything about protein content, non-refined, whole wheat contains about as much protein as beans).  I mean, that's not to downplay the importance of other vegetable crops in the middle ages (in ANY culture), but beans, carrots, nuts, and leafy greens supplemented what was (and still is for most of the world) a grain based diet, and their consumption was always secondary to consumption of grains for the most part regardless of time of year.  Also, yields of fruit orchards are dismal compared to the yields of equivalent areas of grain crops, especially during the middle ages.  And I seriously doubt your statement that it takes more land to feed people with wheat than other non-grain plants.  Do you have the source?  This really interests me.

Wheat is simply not as efficient land-wise as other forms of vegetables.  The reason wheat was used was, again, it was capable of being stored for long periods of time (possibly even years) in containers, so long as weevils didn't get into your granary.

Wheat, potatoes (when they became available after travel to South America - these were a great source of nutrients, and some breeds of potato could supply all necessary nutritional value to a peasant supplemented only by milk), beans, and some types of root vegetables were the only available stored foods without "processing". 

This is more important than it might sound at first because if you're going for a "big harvest" of an orchard like what happens in modern times, when all the orange trees bear fruit at the same time, and migrant workers come and pick them all within a couple days, then in an era without refrigeration, those oranges would be rotten within days.  Instead, you tend to have just single fruit trees per family, and possibly extra fruit trees if you can turn, say, apples into cider that can keep well. 

Keep in mind also that everyone drank.  The water was often stagnant, and so you'd have to alcohol up your water (or water down your alcohol, whatever) in order to kill the germs.  Children included, of course.  In fact, it's odd that only dwarves are alcohol dependent.  Drinking water from most sources in DF should have a serious chance to make you sick. 

Incidentally, most alcohol had a serious chance to make you sick, as well.  The way that medieval brewers worked their art was an incredibly risky business, and you don't have people reenacting their brewing techniques for a reason. 

This is a blog post with some good information on the likes of pottage:
http://merryfarmer.net/2011/11/14/medieval-monday-the-peasant-diet/

There's conflicting information on this, but it seems like I overreached in my statements, and they do indeed eat bread, but also whatever vegetables were available locally. 

They also did not get their protein supply from just eating bread, however - they kept cows and/or chickens, and got their protein from dairy products.  "The Commons" was a, well, common fixture of any village, and an ancient right, and this was a common pasture where all the villagers could keep their cows or chickens to graze somewhere near the village so that fresh milk could be obtained.  Only children typically drank milk, adults usually had the cheese made from that milk.

Many farmers also fished, trapped, hunted or gathered wild nuts or mushrooms to further supplement their diet. 



As for wheat taking more area, you can look here: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/373019

This person links some websites with a lot of related good information, as well...

As opposed to the roughly two acres of land (nearly 100,000 square feet) it takes to feed a peasant on wheat alone (source: http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/123%2013%20Society.htm ), this person says that with "Intensive Gardening" (which means crowding the crops close together and not tilling the soil), "Successive Planting", "Companion Planting" (growing compatible crops together in condensed spaces so that they crowd out weeds), and "Perfect Soil", you can feed a person on 144 square feet with a vegetable garden using vegetables that are higher yield like tomatoes.  That said, "Successive Planting" includes freak tons of fertilizers, and you're not going to have perfect soil. 

Also, on the subject of taking two acres of land to feed the peasants, keep in mind that they were not using good land.  Farms would be divided up so that the sons could inherit the farms of their fathers until they were so small they could not be divided any more without starving both son's families.  When population expanded, they would move out to less and less arable land, and had to work more land to make up for the shortfalls in their crops.  Every patch of land that feasibly could be arable was used for agriculture of some form or another.

By the way, 2 acres in DF terms, assuming Toady's 2m tiles is 2000 tiles per dwarf to eat.  144 square feet in DF terms is 4 tiles per dwarf to eat.  So making the most of your land KIND OF makes a difference.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:53:57 am by NW_Kohaku »
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Andeerz

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #287 on: May 03, 2012, 06:14:54 pm »

Wow.  Thanks!!!  Dayummm... mind blown.  :D

So, yeah.  DEFINITELY no qualms now.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #288 on: May 03, 2012, 07:07:56 pm »

geez... I spent like half an hour looking up links, and you just respond in three minutes :P
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Andeerz

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #289 on: May 03, 2012, 07:20:05 pm »

LOL!  Well, I still need to read them thoroughly.  When I get home I will...

[EDIT:]

Well I had some free time at worked and I read the stuff you linked me!  It seems to make sense what you said!  Though you made your point, I wonder how yields per land unit for wheat compared to other crops during not-so-ideal conditions.  The stuff about gardens for individual peasant families and households is pretty amazing to me, and from stuff I've been reading, it's very surprising to me how complete a peasant diet could be!  And I was surprised that fish and meat in some places played a significant (yet often extremely small) part of common folks' diet.  And it's cool to see how people supplemented the protein portion of their diet.  The bit about almond milk blew my mind, BTW.

I feel that if you adequately model the properties of the plants and what kind of work it takes to grow them, then the realism will emerge on its own, including the land required, the requirements of storing/preparing/etc. food, the tradability of whatever food, and peoples' diets.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 08:03:07 pm by Andeerz »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #290 on: May 04, 2012, 11:42:47 am »

Well, it depends partially on the region they lived in and the era they lived in.

The Medieval Warm Period would have sucked to be alive - more people, same amount of arable land producing the same amount of food. 

In fact, just after the Bubonic Plague swept through was the best time to be alive - so much of the population was gone that people could reconsolidate farms back into places where you could grow more crops than just mostly wheat, and you had a boom in growing grapes and tomatoes and the like. 

Basically, when researching this thread, I went through an awful lot of organic farming sites.  Essentially, "organic farming" and "organic living" are just fancy ways to say "eating like a medieval peasant".
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Babylon

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #291 on: May 04, 2012, 01:11:21 pm »



In fact, just after the Bubonic Plague swept through was the best time to be alive - so much of the population was gone that people could reconsolidate farms back into places where you could grow more crops than just mostly wheat, and you had a boom in growing grapes and tomatoes and the like. 



That would be why it sparked a rennaisance
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Graknorke

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #292 on: May 09, 2012, 01:26:48 pm »

I don't really have much to contribute other than that I like the general idea.
Some of the overly-complex specifics like having 5 different kinds of nutrient rather than having a couple of general ones aren't something I particularly want but I'm sure that if they became a thing then I wouldn't quit playing or anything.
I do particularly like the idea of farming in zones rather than in definate plots though, for one it makes the whole thing about scheduling easier to handle; and it also gets rid of the slightly strange message, "UristMcTantrumer has toppled the field" (or something to that effect).

Since you haven't yet compiled a list of your suggestions, do you have anything about a 'continue worldgen' setting under 'start playing'?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #293 on: May 09, 2012, 01:55:28 pm »

I don't really have much to contribute other than that I like the general idea.
Some of the overly-complex specifics like having 5 different kinds of nutrient rather than having a couple of general ones aren't something I particularly want but I'm sure that if they became a thing then I wouldn't quit playing or anything.
I do particularly like the idea of farming in zones rather than in definate plots though, for one it makes the whole thing about scheduling easier to handle; and it also gets rid of the slightly strange message, "UristMcTantrumer has toppled the field" (or something to that effect).

Well, water is special, and a distinction between N and the P/K is worth having because Nitrogen fixators and crop cycles are meant to support nitrates, but they don't supply the other two.  Just going ahead and splitting the P and K up shouldn't be much of a big deal either way beyond that point. 

Biomass as a fifth variable in order to have a special stat for mushroom-type crops is just fallout from some other discussions, but it would basically mean you are using a different type of stat gained from different raw materials used as fertilizer in order to raise the important fertility stats. 

In other words, in any given field, the fertility would usually functionally be either 4-variable or 2-variable, since the biomass variable would only apply to the mushroom-type crops that just need dead things to decompose and water. 

Since you haven't yet compiled a list of your suggestions, do you have anything about a 'continue worldgen' setting under 'start playing'?

I haven't written a thread about that exact subject, and have mainly just commented on the threads of others who have. 

The closest I have come is with the so-called Kingdom Mode suggestions, where you could play the most abstract game mode that runs years as "turns".  Time would be advancing very fast, but you'd be actively playing the game at that point.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 04:15:23 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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NiknudStunod

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #294 on: May 09, 2012, 04:00:23 pm »

I have some doubts about some of what you say here.  I'd wager the two big reasons for use of grains like wheat are the storage thing and, more importantly, that wheat and other grains are MUCH MUCH MUCH more energy rich than most vegetables (compare, for example, 1 cup of wheat grain = 600+ calories, whereas 1 cup of fava beans is around 250 or so calories and turnips is less than 50 calories... and before you say anything about protein content, non-refined, whole wheat contains about as much protein as beans).  I mean, that's not to downplay the importance of other vegetable crops in the middle ages (in ANY culture), but beans, carrots, nuts, and leafy greens supplemented what was (and still is for most of the world) a grain based diet, and their consumption was always secondary to consumption of grains for the most part regardless of time of year.  Also, yields of fruit orchards are dismal compared to the yields of equivalent areas of grain crops, especially during the middle ages.  And I seriously doubt your statement that it takes more land to feed people with wheat than other non-grain plants.  Do you have the source?  This really interests me.

Wheat is simply not as efficient land-wise as other forms of vegetables.  The reason wheat was used was, again, it was capable of being stored for long periods of time (possibly even years) in containers, so long as weevils didn't get into your granary.

Wheat, potatoes (when they became available after travel to South America - these were a great source of nutrients, and some breeds of potato could supply all necessary nutritional value to a peasant supplemented only by milk), beans, and some types of root vegetables were the only available stored foods without "processing". 

This is more important than it might sound at first because if you're going for a "big harvest" of an orchard like what happens in modern times, when all the orange trees bear fruit at the same time, and migrant workers come and pick them all within a couple days, then in an era without refrigeration, those oranges would be rotten within days.  Instead, you tend to have just single fruit trees per family, and possibly extra fruit trees if you can turn, say, apples into cider that can keep well. 

Keep in mind also that everyone drank.  The water was often stagnant, and so you'd have to alcohol up your water (or water down your alcohol, whatever) in order to kill the germs.  Children included, of course.  In fact, it's odd that only dwarves are alcohol dependent.  Drinking water from most sources in DF should have a serious chance to make you sick. 

Incidentally, most alcohol had a serious chance to make you sick, as well.  The way that medieval brewers worked their art was an incredibly risky business, and you don't have people reenacting their brewing techniques for a reason. 

This is a blog post with some good information on the likes of pottage:
http://merryfarmer.net/2011/11/14/medieval-monday-the-peasant-diet/

There's conflicting information on this, but it seems like I overreached in my statements, and they do indeed eat bread, but also whatever vegetables were available locally. 

They also did not get their protein supply from just eating bread, however - they kept cows and/or chickens, and got their protein from dairy products.  "The Commons" was a, well, common fixture of any village, and an ancient right, and this was a common pasture where all the villagers could keep their cows or chickens to graze somewhere near the village so that fresh milk could be obtained.  Only children typically drank milk, adults usually had the cheese made from that milk.

Many farmers also fished, trapped, hunted or gathered wild nuts or mushrooms to further supplement their diet. 



As for wheat taking more area, you can look here: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/373019

This person links some websites with a lot of related good information, as well...

As opposed to the roughly two acres of land (nearly 100,000 square feet) it takes to feed a peasant on wheat alone (source: http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/123%2013%20Society.htm ), this person says that with "Intensive Gardening" (which means crowding the crops close together and not tilling the soil), "Successive Planting", "Companion Planting" (growing compatible crops together in condensed spaces so that they crowd out weeds), and "Perfect Soil", you can feed a person on 144 square feet with a vegetable garden using vegetables that are higher yield like tomatoes.  That said, "Successive Planting" includes freak tons of fertilizers, and you're not going to have perfect soil. 

Also, on the subject of taking two acres of land to feed the peasants, keep in mind that they were not using good land.  Farms would be divided up so that the sons could inherit the farms of their fathers until they were so small they could not be divided any more without starving both son's families.  When population expanded, they would move out to less and less arable land, and had to work more land to make up for the shortfalls in their crops.  Every patch of land that feasibly could be arable was used for agriculture of some form or another.

Actually it can be argued that the reason wheat and other grains were some of the first crops to be mass produced is one of the dwarfiest reasons of all......Beer.  Fermenting grains was one of the earliest forms of preserving food for long winters.  You may be able to thank beer for civilazation taking hold and prospering.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 05:19:58 pm by NiknudStunod »
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Andeerz

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #295 on: May 09, 2012, 04:48:16 pm »

That was actually mentioned in half-seriousness in my favorite book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" (which everyone should read!!! It's awesome, trust me!) 

And, hell yeah, that is dwarfy!

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_beer

Best, ever!  Anyway, according to this and other things I read (as well as nice links shared by NW_Kohaku) beer has been around since almost 9000 BCE, and was commonly drank (daily, I might add!!!)  by people of all classes, ages, and soforth throughout medieval Europe!  Seems like humans and Dwarves are much more similar than we think...

Actually... maybe the founder of human civilization was actually a dwarf!  I could imagine... Urist McCaveman made some beer one day from a personal garden of wild grains (and maybe other wild "grasses" heh heh...) and bestowed his gift upon us savage humans... then people liked it so much, they started a large-scale agricultural industry centered around that most tasty of beverages.

And it makes sense from a nutritional point of view: beer has always been a source of calories and nutrients with a long shelf-life (a liquid bread, if you will), as well as a tasty form of hydration (given it wasn't too alcoholic, which a lot of fermented grain and fruit drinks in history weren't necessarily as alcoholic as beer you might commonly find today... think about Spanish cidra). 

So cool... 
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Mr. Palau

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #296 on: May 20, 2012, 08:12:57 pm »

This games needs to make agriculture harder in order to realisticaly simulate the time period it is based on, and the dynamics of a non-industrial economy/bump.
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Graknorke

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #297 on: May 21, 2012, 11:48:13 am »

This games needs to make agriculture harder in order to realisticaly simulate the time period it is based on, and the dynamics of a non-industrial economy/bump.
It rather irritates me when people mention time-periods, if not because Dwarf Fortress is set in a technically indefinite range of times, assuming your computer could keep on storing the memory of various historical events.
Also because you shouldn't look at realism; look at gameplay value. Realism is why all of the mainstream shooters are Brown - The Game, bundled with Grey - the Industrial and City Pack.
In fact, realism tends to make things worse in many cases, because real life is boring. Real life as a reference for complex and deep gameplay mechanics though is fine, becase it contains the most detail of pretty much anything, obviously.

And I forgot the point I was making?
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Draco18s

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #298 on: May 21, 2012, 11:53:09 am »

This games needs to make agriculture harder in order to realisticaly simulate the time period it is based on, and the dynamics of a non-industrial economy/bump.
It rather irritates me when people mention time-periods, if not because Dwarf Fortress is set in a technically indefinite range of times, assuming your computer could keep on storing the memory of various historical events.
Also because you shouldn't look at realism; look at gameplay value. Realism is why all of the mainstream shooters are Brown - The Game, bundled with Grey - the Industrial and City Pack.
In fact, realism tends to make things worse in many cases, because real life is boring. Real life as a reference for complex and deep gameplay mechanics though is fine, becase it contains the most detail of pretty much anything, obviously.

And I forgot the point I was making?

While true, anything post-1400s is considered outside of DF's timeline.
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Graknorke

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Re: Improved Farming, Rebooted: Agricultural Revolution
« Reply #299 on: May 21, 2012, 12:14:16 pm »

This games needs to make agriculture harder in order to realisticaly simulate the time period it is based on, and the dynamics of a non-industrial economy/bump.
It rather irritates me when people mention time-periods, if not because Dwarf Fortress is set in a technically indefinite range of times, assuming your computer could keep on storing the memory of various historical events.
Also because you shouldn't look at realism; look at gameplay value. Realism is why all of the mainstream shooters are Brown - The Game, bundled with Grey - the Industrial and City Pack.
In fact, realism tends to make things worse in many cases, because real life is boring. Real life as a reference for complex and deep gameplay mechanics though is fine, becase it contains the most detail of pretty much anything, obviously.

And I forgot the point I was making?

While true, anything post-1400s is considered outside of DF's timeline.
Are you sure? Because they seem to be able to handle this no problems.
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