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Author Topic: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!  (Read 230436 times)

Dutchling

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6195 on: July 28, 2014, 12:39:39 pm »

I doubt anyone thinks Israel is bombing civilians for the evils.

It's their apparently really screwed up notions about collateral damage and how much is acceptable.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6196 on: July 28, 2014, 12:50:09 pm »

Here's my question; are people seriously arguing that Israel targeted the UN school to... what? Kill refugees and aid workers? Destroy any international goodwill they might have had left?

The idea that Israel would make a deliberate strike just to kill people in such a manner is absurd. That's not to say that it couldn't have been an Israeli strike, but the idea that they are deliberately slaughtering people just to slaughter them makes absolutely zero sense, as well has having some unpleasant history in this area.

Sense, logic and truth are not strong with "some" of the posters here.


Hamas, Misfire, yet, again. i'd say that's the third, but i guess that's probably way more but we have no way to know for other cases.
https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/493788547460378624
https://twitter.com/TamerELG/status/493810531908591616

IDF never shot in that area, so, yeah, this one can't be twisted by hamas and his supporters.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 12:53:37 pm by burningpet »
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6197 on: July 28, 2014, 01:05:29 pm »

Here's my question; are people seriously arguing that Israel targeted the UN school to... what? Kill refugees and aid workers? Destroy any international goodwill they might have had left?

The idea that Israel would make a deliberate strike just to kill people in such a manner is absurd. That's not to say that it couldn't have been an Israeli strike, but the idea that they are deliberately slaughtering people just to slaughter them makes absolutely zero sense, as well has having some unpleasant history in this area.
You begin questioning the logic and sense of the people making these decisions when they start going off and using civilians as shields for seemingly no reason other than them wanting to lose face. Or using flechette rounds in urban areas with plenty of civilians. That kind of thing.

So, wait, you seriously maintain that israel, if it even shot a deadly shell there, did so intentionally to hurt civilians?

And there's a logic in using flachete in places that are supposed to be clear of civlians. the logic being, wanting to kill terrorists as fast as possible and spare soldiers lives doing so.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:08:19 pm by burningpet »
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GavJ

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6198 on: July 28, 2014, 01:22:48 pm »

Quote
did so intentionally to hurt civilians?
If you knowingly attack an area that has civilians in it, then yes. I call that intentionally hurting civilians. Whether or not that was your main strategic objective, it is very different than a "mistake" because you knew full well it would happen.

Anyway, regardless of what you label it, there are three distinct categories of actions here, not two:

Does Israel set out with the primary goal of hurting civilians? No probably not. (though possibly)
Does Israel set out to do other things, and not particularly care that civilians will almost certainly end up dying as a result? Yes, seemingly absolutely.
Does Israel ALSO sometimes probably mistakenly kill civilians? Yes as well.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6199 on: July 28, 2014, 01:24:56 pm »

Here's my question; are people seriously arguing that Israel targeted the UN school to... what? Kill refugees and aid workers? Destroy any international goodwill they might have had left?
To send a message, just like Hamas.  The idea that Palestinians deserve "collective punishment" for allowing Hamas to come to power and operate is not an uncommon one in Israel (see: burningpet's posts).  Indeed, it to some degree exists in official Israeli policy - that's why the blockade places strict limits on food imports into Gaza.

https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/493788547460378624
https://twitter.com/TamerELG/status/493810531908591616
The second one is somewhat plausible, the first... not really.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/strikes-near-gazas-shifa-hospital-refugee-camp-kill-least-10-n166571
Like I guess it's technically possible for three highly inaccurate rockets to all misfire in exactly the same way and hit the same target, but that seems insanely unlikely.
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burningpet

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6200 on: July 28, 2014, 01:29:08 pm »

Here's my question; are people seriously arguing that Israel targeted the UN school to... what? Kill refugees and aid workers? Destroy any international goodwill they might have had left?

Quote
To send a message, just like Hamas.  The idea that Palestinians deserve "collective punishment" for allowing Hamas to come to power and operate is not an uncommon one in Israel (see: burningpet's posts).  Indeed, it to some degree exists in official Israeli policy - that's why the blockade places strict limits on food imports into Gaza.
When did i say the palestines should be punished for hamas actions?

https://twitter.com/nickschifrin/status/493788547460378624
https://twitter.com/TamerELG/status/493810531908591616
Quote
The second one is somewhat plausible, the first... not really.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/strikes-near-gazas-shifa-hospital-refugee-camp-kill-least-10-n166571
Like I guess it's technically possible for three highly inaccurate rockets to all misfire in exactly the same way and hit the same target, but that seems insanely unlikely.

No, its extremely plausible since its not the fault of the rockets, its the fault of the launcher.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:31:50 pm by burningpet »
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PTTG??

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Re: Egypt and the world and Libya - Now without Ukraine!
« Reply #6201 on: July 28, 2014, 01:45:55 pm »

I'm going to lock this thread because I haven't moderated it for a long time now, and it has gone beyond my ability to fact-check. I look forward to whatever discussions arise in the future.

Thank you everyone for your many constructive comments, and no thank you to the occasional non-constructive comments.
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