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Author Topic: Xenosynthesis and magic fields  (Read 50776 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #150 on: May 13, 2015, 03:11:56 pm »

As for procedurally generated (or rather, blindly random, as this game tends to be with these sorts of things...) sacrifices for gods, the problem would be the same as mandates from nobles, except that you couldn't arrange an "Unfortunate Accident" for a deity. 

What happens when a Deity demands giant red panda spleens on a world with no savage temperate forest?

For that matter, when we're talking about magic, a lot of people seem to think it's perfectly fine to have magic be something where individual dwarves randomly start causing demon invasions or make a volcano appear in the middle of your fort.  That sort of wizard that can utterly destroy your fort for no particular positive benefit is the sort of thing that causes players to simply atom-smash anyone in their fort who shows any signs of wizardry.  There isn't any fun in having magic that exists just to give you arbitrary game overs and ruin your forts for no good reason.
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arbarbonif

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #151 on: May 13, 2015, 04:08:51 pm »

I still don't see why plants have to transform sunlight into xeno-energy. Why not just have a sort-of-negative-sun-down-below which emits xeno energy which fuels all the cavern plants?

Read the thread first!  I have been over this, particularly in reply 131, reply 121 and reply 105 (which contains a reply to this exact suggestion in reply 104).

Having read those posts, I still don't see the problem with this.  Mana from the center of the earth as a generic power source (much like sunlight from above is) seems to simplify things tremendously.  It explains savage regions (more of that power gets to the surface and is utilized there).  Why the lower caverns are more dangerous (closer to the power).  How cave flora/fauna exist (they are thaumavores).  Why the demons/slade/candy/pits/SMR exist (excessive power that deep).  The fact that it can be used as a reasonable explanation to so many things is a plus, not a "laziness".  I admit I'm not overly concerned in the specific mechanism of energy transfer/usage, I can accept that as an abstraction.

Mana can power things via spheres, but it doesn't HAVE to (or at least not exclusively).  Much like sunlight powers life via chlorophyll, but can also light a fire.  Good and Evil regions are just the only sphered areas we have now, but there could easily be a "sphere" map to go with savagery (or mana-tude).  That would tune the effects of the extra power, but it can still all be powered by the same source.

As far as spheres, high mana regions would have stronger sphere reactions.  Both boosting and countering, the player generating death energy should create "death" effects and higher incidents of "life" effects (especially since the spheres are tied to active gods, who don't like meddling).
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #152 on: May 13, 2015, 07:27:44 pm »

Having read those posts, I still don't see the problem with this.  Mana from the center of the earth as a generic power source (much like sunlight from above is) seems to simplify things tremendously.  It explains savage regions (more of that power gets to the surface and is utilized there).  Why the lower caverns are more dangerous (closer to the power).  How cave flora/fauna exist (they are thaumavores).  Why the demons/slade/candy/pits/SMR exist (excessive power that deep).  The fact that it can be used as a reasonable explanation to so many things is a plus, not a "laziness".  I admit I'm not overly concerned in the specific mechanism of energy transfer/usage, I can accept that as an abstraction.

Mana can power things via spheres, but it doesn't HAVE to (or at least not exclusively).  Much like sunlight powers life via chlorophyll, but can also light a fire.  Good and Evil regions are just the only sphered areas we have now, but there could easily be a "sphere" map to go with savagery (or mana-tude).  That would tune the effects of the extra power, but it can still all be powered by the same source.

As far as spheres, high mana regions would have stronger sphere reactions.  Both boosting and countering, the player generating death energy should create "death" effects and higher incidents of "life" effects (especially since the spheres are tied to active gods, who don't like meddling).

Well, first, I should say I don't speak for Tristan Alkai, and he likely disagrees, but I don't think there's anything wrong with "energy from the HFS" explaining some of its influence on the caverns, but using it to explain everything is problematic.

Spheres are the "mana" (or XE or sphere energy or xenoenergeia or hey guys, why don't we all just make up our own words just for the sake of our insanities?)  Making magic emanate from the underworld and the underworld ONLY creates problems when you look forward into what DF is supposed to become.   

The thing is, DF has a lot of placeholder features that have spawned some "justifications" that make no sense in the long run.  GavJ tried to argue that dwarves don't breathe because they can be locked into airtight rooms for long times, but that's probably because he doesn't play adventure mode, because I can assure you that strangling people to death sure seems to work, and asphyxiation from pierced lungs are good ways to kill people, wheras dwarves can apparently still survive without a pancreas.

The way spheres are now and the relative low magic are not meant to last, they're just a lack of features.  Xenosynthesis was originally meant not so much as an explanation of what exists as a way to make what will be put into the game something that the player is capable of interacting with in a way other than just straight casting spells and watching your MP meter in total contrast to everything else in the game. 

The way that Toady has talked about planes, the HFS is just one "otherworld" of many, and we're supposed to eventually have the capacity to travel to much more than just that one.  Each otherworld has its own influence and can shape the world with its magical powers.  The forests that elves live in, for example, have a powerful sentient nature deity capable of turning ordinary creatures into furries animalmen. This is pretty heavily implied to be powered by nature (read: forests/trees) itself.  This, in turn, is why elves are so militant about nature, as they serve an inhuman entity that is fueled by the trees, themselves, and as such, the trees are worth more than their own lives.  That's not just something I'm making up that fits with the facts we know, that's what Toady and Threetoe have laid down as canon, and will be putting into the game in more and more unignorable fashion.

Hence, the way I've come around to it, large-scale butchery and leaving a bloody field filled with corpses may cause a dramatic shift in the alignment of a given area towards death-aligned spheres.  This isn't the same thing as changing the "flavor" of the magic so much as aligning it with an external power source.  The energy flows out of a death-aligned otherworld naturally, but the barriers between worlds are too impermeable to prevent the spilling of that power.  When you have that massive slaughter, however, it weakens the barriers to the otherworld in that area.

It's also worth pointing out that spheres may have deities aligned with them, but they may not.  They may also have multiple deities aligned with them. (Especially since every dwarven civ has its own personal mountain, craft, fortress, etc. deities.) This implies deities are not be-all-end-all masters of everything related to their spheres or otherworlds, but merely the most powerful beings within those worlds.  (I.E. they are powerful beings representing mountains, and can make mountain magic work for you, but they do not speak for all mountains everywhere or even necessarily control mountain-aligned magical creatures.)

Likewise, you might say that the nether-caps are portals to otherworlds that are energy sinks, and that they somehow capitalize off the draining of thermal energy into the otherworld.  Whether like osmosis or merely atmospheres of different pressures, different otherworlds may simply naturally "leak" more energy in or out of the "normal world" than others. 

The difference here is that we're not so worried about making sure that there's "enough energy".  Like water out of the ocean, what leaks occur in one place or another are relatively insignificant. 

That said, something like a death-sphere-world may actually be able to feed itself somehow through specific profane acts, which would be why they want to help goblins conquer the world and spread "evil" biomes in some of the stories.

Again, I also would want to push that caverns are not always exactly the same no matter where you embark.  (Rather than a vertical transfer of xenoenergeia as Tristan Alkai has been arguing, I'd rather see a horizontal one, where you can charge/pollute different caverns with different types of energies.  If births near the surface or upper caverns cause those areas to bloom with life, then you bring everything to the bottom cavern when you butcher them, you could then hypothetically cause the upper reaches to flood with life energy, causing healing-related miracles to occur or increased fecundity, while the bottom reaches flood with death energy and start causing zombies.)
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Ianflow

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #153 on: May 14, 2015, 02:26:41 am »

What happens when a Deity demands giant red panda spleens on a world with no savage temperate forest?

And there's my issue. I think like with Noble Mandates, things could become more reasonable. I think in game the sacrifices could be AI chosen by dorfs who are worshipers, and in addition the player could schedule ones. However, Gods could have like Dorfs do a pregen'd set of likes and dislikes. Worshipers who know this could work with it and their supplies.

I also agree the arbitrary game over is wrong, which is why the system must be refined.

This post will be me replying (mostly opinion) in regards to your reply.

To your initial reply, I'm not fully onboard with Spheres. It'd be an easier way to manage it, but I feel the savage biomes are almost an example of a naturally occuring area that can support the life. Wooly Mammoths, if they weren't overhunted, would likely be around up to last century. That and in addition the large majority of ice age life in North America would still be around due to Wooly Mammoths being a keystone species.
Anyhow that's just to get to the point, Wooly Mammoths have trouble surviving outside their normal biome. Good farming can keep specimens alive outside of their natural habitat, and I would approve of resource management to that extent.
I think it'd make sense if the giant sperm whale died of starvation outside of it's natural habitat, or it made a lair, but it just shrinking doesn't sit right with me.

Magic is magic, but that bit just doesn't make enough sense for me. Along with that, while I do believe in the ability for corruptive forces, I do however have an issue with "this magically attuned creature moves to this biome, insta-evil". Partly because I would enjoy my dwarven fortress being able to have a cabaret of nude dancing satyrs that don't go instantly beserk because they're in an evil biome. Partly because I just feel that (especially because of the roleplaying done in Roomcarnage), I think that the evil and good biomes, in addition to Savage ones, should be rather than the same system as magic, should be a different "plane" or system that has crossovers.
I also would support that the interface between these biomes and magic is "Land Spirits". This could be an interesting way to use (potentially elven) religious beliefs as a way that not only could allow druidic magic to become easy to implement, but as a way for the Land to make conscious decisions. The land spirit of your site hates life? That's the corruptive evil force. It has to find a way to interact and corrupt, rather than just the air insta-evils things. Similar to how we have evil rain that melts flesh and makes zombies, that is the Land doing something.
This would mean that the land notices increased surface/outdoors activity. It begins to use it's energy to mobilize nearby zombies, or to start weather. This may take a bit, and be survivable, hell it could have a warning such as "the land curses life with a plague".
Sentient Land Spirits interacting, which means the elves tell you to stop cutting down trees as a warning, not as just a request. The Land Spirit starts causing trees chopped down to fall onto dwarves. No longer is it buggy physics, but the Land is intentionally trying to kill you. Research into practices could curb these chances, but it might be a time to let the carpentry industry cool down and focus elsewhere.

Though when it comes to the spheres such as music, it would be interesting to give the local natural magic some flavor. Rather than all animals sing constantly, we could make it toned down. Settlements in the area seem to be more likely to produce new musical forms and songs.
It'd be interesting to have Land Spirits with an agenda, such as music. They could also interact with Deities who have a sphere in it. A Land Spirit that takes interest in music would make it much easier for a musical goddess to enter it's space. Land Spirits are a more passive form of power, and it could be overpowered by a Deity, but with support from the locals a Deity (or magic user) could be repulsed.

In all honesty I'm not 100% against the concept of Spheres and other aspects of the subject, but my opinions and justifications don't mentally mesh that well with it.

For instance I'm interested in Mutable Spheres.

However, I'm not 100% into it where a butcher workshop could cause enough of a death aura to start causing zombies. That'd be an infrastructure nightmare. Having to set butcher workshops to only be used every other year, and even then with fortresses not being mobile I have to find ways to change the auras back and forth.
I'm also generally not 100% for "death is always evil" "birth is always good" alignment wise. I think death is a very complicated thing and so is life. Death is as much a creative force as Life is a destructive one, and while we portray them as opposites, they're really siamese twins. Life can erode mountains faster than water and air, whereas a natural disaster with massive Death can pave the way for new opportunities for Life.
Which is why in this case I'd also be for Spheres being gen'd at world start, along with otherplanar things. You might end up with 3 separate death worlds that all work in different ways. Sure you've got your "kill kill kill" deathworld, but there's also a deathworld that hugs those that enter it "your suffering has ended", and then there could even be one that has the emotional deadpan of Terry Pratchett's death.

This also brings me to Planar Generation in addition to Planar Travel
I think Dwarf Fortress could work well with generating small Planes. These planes might be 1/2 or 1/4 or even 1/16 the size of a pocket world, yet still be big enough to be significant. The game could generate these in world gen and have them have a slower timespan or a longer one. This means either fast tics or slow tics. They might even be on the same speed of time, but have less history generated. Planes could be "created" in the sense that a Wizard made the plane (this plane would be maybe the size of the smallest possible fort at most), or when a portal opens to said plane in world gen.

Portals could open periodically in game. Varying size (normally sentient being sized), and either permanent or temporary. These would have an impact in game at a substantial level unless we balanced that.
Permanent Portals are Sealable. Temporary Portals are Non-Sealable.
This sounds like an oxymoron right? Well PermaPortals would be for example, a portal opens up. Rip in the fabric of reality. It doesn't close unless you do the right thing. You could probably wait it out, as even Perma Portals will inevitably close.
Temporary Portals? They can't be closed. Ever. You could build a wall in front of it sure, but like any portal what comes out may be intangible. This type of portal will naturally close within a season. Should normally close within a month or less.
These would be ways to facilitate Planar Travel, have a way that a sphere could easily be changed (say a war god forcefully opens up a portal to an edenic garden on dorfplanet, that edenic garden is likely going to have it's savagery rise very fast). Say the elves have a settlement there. Well if the elves have the right people on staff (an occultist, astronomer, alchemist, what have you), they might be able to figure out exactly when that portal will open, and for how long, and how to combat it's opening. This means the Elves might be able to seal up the portal the same day it opens. That war god just wasted so much magical energy, and was thwarted.

So in worldgen we might see planar portals opening up across all different plances, but sealing up fast enough to not make a huge impact.

I'm not sure if the subject has been breached, but I think it'd be a lovely thing to introduce to the debate as another aspect that could be explored and enhance the subject.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 03:27:44 am by Ianflow »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #154 on: May 14, 2015, 01:23:04 pm »

To your initial reply, I'm not fully onboard with Spheres.

Well, like with the response to GavJ... tough. 

I mean, I understand trepidation towards some of these changes, but that's simply what Toady has been planning to do for a long time, and has pretty much always been the plan.  And it's not looking like he's backing down now, he's adding more and more things relating to spheres as he goes.  (The new divine metals, for example, are all sphere-aligned, creating "booming metal" out of thunder spheres, for example...)

I'm not here to argue why spheres need to be here, I'm here to argue how they can be made into something more engineerable by the player. 

Or in other words, since they ARE going to be in the game, they might as well be something the player can use, rather than something that just happens to the player. 

Magic is magic, but that bit just doesn't make enough sense for me. Along with that, while I do believe in the ability for corruptive forces, I do however have an issue with "this magically attuned creature moves to this biome, insta-evil".

I'm not sure that it's insta-evil, but that is, again, part of Toady's stated goals. 

What I'm arguing, though, is that players should have some control over the changes to their biome's spheres, such that you can prevent your biomes from going evil, and prevent your satyrs from turning into foul blendecs. 

The Land Spirit starts causing trees chopped down to fall onto dwarves. No longer is it buggy physics, but the Land is intentionally trying to kill you.

Again, you might want to look up the Threetoe story "Root". It largely depicts what a forest does to avenge itself, and things like animal-persons are one of those things.

This implies that animal-people in some way embody the will of the forest spirits, at least at their creation. (Successive generations may well stray from the path of their creator, but maybe it would be hard to survive apart from the magic of their forests...)

Though when it comes to the spheres such as music, it would be interesting to give the local natural magic some flavor. Rather than all animals sing constantly, we could make it toned down. Settlements in the area seem to be more likely to produce new musical forms and songs.

I'd agree that it should be a matter of degree.  I think there should be degrees of how good or evil a biome is, and by making a system by which that magic is drained or replinished, you have a way of controlling that.

Generally, what I argue is that there should be a subtle level of controllable effects, where there are just a few odd animals or plants and maybe you can sap some xenoenergeaia from them, a notable level of sphere influence, where there are frequent examples of creatures influenced by that sphere (like how savage spheres are now or evil biomes with just skeletons), and saturated levels of sphere influence, where the map becomes extremely dangerous (like evil biomes with clouds) and actively can warp your dwarves if they are caught up in it (like clouds turning dwarves to thralls). 

The idea being that balancing out forces is the safest, while making things extreme leads to all kinds of exciting Fun.

However, I'm not 100% into it where a butcher workshop could cause enough of a death aura to start causing zombies. That'd be an infrastructure nightmare. Having to set butcher workshops to only be used every other year, and even then with fortresses not being mobile I have to find ways to change the auras back and forth.
I'm also generally not 100% for "death is always evil" "birth is always good" alignment wise. I think death is a very complicated thing and so is life. Death is as much a creative force as Life is a destructive one, and while we portray them as opposites, they're really siamese twins. Life can erode mountains faster than water and air, whereas a natural disaster with massive Death can pave the way for new opportunities for Life.

Those were just examples that most fit in with what we currently have - "evil" and "death" and zombies. 

What I'm suggesting isn't so much that if you have a butcher shop, you automatically get zombies, but that it adds points towards something related to death, and that it could be opposed by something else in your fortress, such as animal births. (Which should, logically, be tied directly to how often you butcher.  For that matter, you might have the capacity to pray to or make sacrifices towards whatever is anti-death-aligned to counteract that decline into death-sphere-prevalence.

Rather, I'm more playing towards the old notion of a battlefield with unmarked graves being a "place of death" and having ghosts and hauntings and such.  Your front gate where you constantly burn your goblin foes alive may be a strong locus of negative energies. A butcher shop may get some markings as a place of death, as well.  You might need to set up a temple nearby to counteract those powers with whatever their opposites are.

I agree that the world isn't necessarily broken up into binary oppositions of water versus fire or life versus death, but for the sort of system we're talking about, it makes things much easier to have opposition, as it means that "evil" power goes down when you do things that up "good" power.

This also brings me to Planar Generation in addition to Planar Travel
I think Dwarf Fortress could work well with generating small Planes.

Toady is already planning on doing this.
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arbarbonif

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #155 on: May 14, 2015, 01:28:43 pm »

It just seems to me that the more axes you add to the system the more complicated and confusing it ends up.  The present two axes, savagery and evilness, work pretty well to keep everything understandable.  I'd change savagery to mana level (or whatever name you would like) and evilness to some idea of dominant sphere seems like a neat solution.  If every sphere had its own amplitude, you end up with too many variables to really get a sense of what is going on (and if each can be modified separately it gets even worse).  It is also less confusing to present players, since it is basically a variant of what we already have.

I think that having amplitude (mana/savagery) be fixed by location and having direction (sphere) be modifiable by player actions seems to give a nice balance of predictability and variance, without making things too complicated. I still like the idea of mana coming from the earth (since this is DWARF fortress after all and it simplifies the cavern issues) but making it an aspect of the area in general would cause less issues with the elfly/surface powers and the like.  Perhaps make some structure or feature that is a font of mana (like Ianflow's portals), what form it takes would be based on the dominant sphere in the area.  But if other nearby areas are dominated by different spheres they would use that same radiating power to manifest different phenomena.  Alternately it could just be a thing...  local aetheric density?  Figure dwarves like things predicable, so they settle in low magic areas.  Elves are all about basking in the glow so they hang out in high magic areas.  The creatures in an area can gain power/size/bonuses from the ambient magic level with the specifics (and in some cases what kinds of creatures are available) being flavored by the dominant sphere.  Flame breathing fluffy wamblers, anyone?

DF is a fantasy world simulator, but it is also a game.  Giving the players ways to avoid aspects of gameplay they don't want to deal with in a sandboxy game is good form.  If you avoid high magic areas then the complexities of sphere management are safely ignored, otherwise you have to take care to not death the place up or its zombie ahoy.  If I am going to be besieged by zombies if I play in a certain way no matter where I am, it is more constraining.  Limiting the number of spheres that can impact gameplay would also probably be necessary.  Death, life, fire, ice, earth and wind would all be easy to figure (classical elements for the win).  Maybe have it a world gen param (number of spheres or even types from a list)?

I probably should also read up more on Toady's stated plans...
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #156 on: May 14, 2015, 02:08:04 pm »

It just seems to me that the more axes you add to the system the more complicated and confusing it ends up.

Yes, yes it does.

If every sphere had its own amplitude, you end up with too many variables to really get a sense of what is going on (and if each can be modified separately it gets even worse).  It is also less confusing to present players, since it is basically a variant of what we already have.

Since when does Toady care about not confusing players?!  :P

There are over 130 spheres already, and Toady adds more every now and then, and states that he plans to add further ones as he goes.  But basically, Toady says he wants to eliminate Good/Evil/Savage in favor of spheres, but that there will only be a few "categorical" sphere types that actually interact on the map.  If you're interested in the thought experiment, I had a thread on trying to organize them down to a (relative) few opposing forces

Perhaps make some structure or feature that is a font of mana (like Ianflow's portals), what form it takes would be based on the dominant sphere in the area.

In a sense, things like that are planned.  (Presumably, that's what necromancer towers or spires or vaults other things like that will do.)

I also suggest that megabeasts like Titans are xenoenergeia fountains, as well, as they serve part of the meta-story that DF tries to tell about a twilight of magic. 

In general, the way in which DF's ages operate suggest that all or nearly all magic dies when the "powers" die.  This, in turn, suggests them as the fountains of magical power throughout the world.  Killing the megabeasts turns the world more mundane until only [MUNDANE] creatures and humans remain.  See the tropes Cosmic Keystone, The Time of Myths, and The Magic Goes Away.  Toady's deliberately referencing these tropes as a structural component of his game system.  That probably means something.

Simply making energy spew out of the depths of the planet is not conducive to that sort of story, nor is making it part of the decay of leaves or some magic side effect of a yellow sun like they're Superman.  Both of those things are, while not eternal, operating on a time scale far beyond the sort where mere mortals can hope to change what age the world lives in. 

There's no point in a system in a game you can't interact with, and as blunt and stupid as making everything rest upon what is in your kill count, making dragons the source of all magic such that killing dragons "kills magic" is something that is, at least, understandable on a human level.

DF is a fantasy world simulator, but it is also a game.  Giving the players ways to avoid aspects of gameplay they don't want to deal with in a sandboxy game is good form.

Toady hasn't particularly cared about gameplay since the 2d era.  Personally, I tell people DF isn't a game anymore, it's more a performance art project about what a simulation is capable of simulating. 

In any event, it's not like things like this haven't been init options in the past, like with weather or invasions or just raw editing the need to eat out of your dwarves.  However, it's generally not something that

Toady has done things that limit player options in the past, and that's not always a bad thing.  Back when Toady finally placed in the feature that made metals no longer obscenely common, there were people screaming bloody murder that they were no longer getting gold in amounts to make solid gold pyramids dozens of z-levels high at literally any random embark.  (Yes, there were seriously people mad that they didn't have supposedly rare metals in such quantities they could afford to utterly waste it in ostentatious ways on literally any embark...)

To a certain extent, every change to this game has made someone mad, but at the same time, that ol' honey Toady don't care.

If you avoid high magic areas then the complexities of sphere management are safely ignored, otherwise you have to take care to not death the place up or its zombie ahoy.  If I am going to be besieged by zombies if I play in a certain way no matter where I am, it is more constraining.

So does needing to eat, sleep, make clothes for dwarves, protect dwarves from sieges, avoid cave-ins, avoid drowning, avoid fires, avoid syndromes, not having direct control of dwarves, having dwarves that go berserk or on break, or a host of other things.

Limiting how you control the game, in fact, is part of what makes DF both fun and Fun.  It is the interplay of complex systems that makes it interesting, when each individual system is honestly pretty simplistic and boring on its own.

Death, life, fire, ice, earth and wind would all be easy to figure (classical elements for the win).

Ugh... I am SO sick of every fantasy game having to shoehorn everything into Greek elements... I actually like spheres, for as unbelievably bloated as they are, for not being shackled to something so cliche.  In any event, the spheres are more geared towards making it a contest of "the Skies"/Heavens versus "the Depths"/sea or land and there isn't really any generic "water" sphere, but there are oceans, rivers, etc. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 07:06:36 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Tristan Alkai

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #157 on: May 14, 2015, 06:51:08 pm »

Before I get started, a quick aside about "Xenosynthesis Energy", though; Personally, I would go for "xenoenergeia" or the like.  "Xenosynthesis" would be specifically the biological process of metastasizing xenoenergeia/magic. (Lit. "Foreign/Unknown Energy") The term itself actually does a good job of encapsulating the idea behind Xenosynthesis/Xenoenergeia, however - that it combines magic with a sense that it is a type of science, just not one we know. 
"Xenosynthesis Energy" was intended to be a temporary linguistic kludge, and I did drift away from the term.  I seem to have settled on "mana" somewhere along the line (not sure exactly when, nor do I care enough to dig through the thread and figure it out).  As a bonus, this usage of mana is more in keeping with the Polynesian origins of the word than its modern use in video games.  "Xenoenergeia" could also work, and I agree that some of the connotations are nice. 

The sympathetic aspect of magic
This was something I had overlooked.  There were a few reasons for this. 

1. I had a focus on wilderness areas, which downplayed the effect of all actions by civilized beings.  I may have been insufficiently explicit about this. 
A. By extension, I also downplayed the large fraction of the sphere list that I couldn't figure out how to apply to anything other than civilized beings or something closely related to them (their actions, their tools/possessions/gear, their cities, sometimes their domestic animals). 
B. Obviously, this also downplays all actions by the players. 

2. How did xenosynthetic (xeno) plants come to be?  Where did the first xeno plant come from? 
A. I have read all of the Threetoe Stories, and none of them showed any intelligent entity demonstrate the ability to alter plants in this manner. 
B. There was that one adventurer (I'll have to look up which story that was) that took advantage of the existing magical properties of a plant (it gave him night vision, which made it easier to function in a kobold cave), but this is not the same thing. 
(Edit) Found it: Orther Pushes His Luck(/Edit)
C. There were various tricks the elves had with their trees, but these came across to me as either further alteration of a plant that was already magical, or an instantaneous spell that did its thing and did not leave the plant with any new abilities other than those that result from an altered shape.  I favor the former, but, either way, this is not what I'm looking for. 
D. Conclusion: I have to write off deliberate action (divine or otherwise) as the source of the xenosynthesis ability. 
E. That left me in the awkward position of figuring out how xeno plants could have evolved naturally. 

3. The alchemical surface plants were a deliberate hybrid between mundane photosynthetic plants and the cavern xenosynthetic plants that must get their energy from magic.  The alchemical plants can use both. 
A. The later sections of this post were all about the benefit an alchemical plant that does have access to sunlight might gain by generating and using mana. 
B. Then there is this nice snippet from that post, Part 3:
According to my admittedly incomplete understanding of the physics underlying emission and absorption spectra, the ability to absorb and store energy from light implies the ability to emit it.  And, by extension, the ability to emit mana implies the ability to absorb it. 
C. See also: Chlorophyll Fluorescence.  There is precedent (weak as it may be) for my leap of logic (large as it may be) in the properties and behavior of mundane chlorophyll.  The mana emission I describe is a variant of chlorophyll fluorescence. 
D. I am content to leave the exact change that causes xeno-chlorophyll to emit mana instead of light as an abstraction.  The important point is that use of mana can now be presented, in evolutionary terms, as a modification and improvement of existing abilities, not something radically new.  Once alch plants exist, xeno plants can evolve from them. 

This focus on the evolutionary origins of xenosynthesis did, admittedly, cause me to downplay the significance of other worlds and portals to them when discussing the sources of magic.  However, I did not completely ignore them.  I think I may have completely ignored megabeasts.

The Magic Goes Away
I also suggest that megabeasts like Titans are xenoenergeia fountains, as well, as they serve part of the meta-story that DF tries to tell about a twilight of magic. 

In general, the way in which DF's ages operate suggest that all or nearly all magic dies when the "powers" die.  This, in turn, suggests them as the fountains of magical power throughout the world.  Killing the megabeasts turns the world more mundane until only [MUNDANE] creatures and humans remain.  See the tropes Cosmic Keystone, The Time of Myths, and The Magic Goes Away.  Toady's deliberately referencing these tropes as a structural component of his game system.  That probably means something.

Simply making energy spew out of the depths of the planet is not conducive to that sort of story, nor is making it part of the decay of leaves or some magic side effect of a yellow sun like they're Superman.  Both of those things are, while not eternal, operating on a time scale far beyond the sort where mere mortals can hope to change what age the world lives in. 

You do have a point with this, but I have at least a partial counterpoint in reply 105
Well, if we're going to insist on the logic behind underground energy sources... has anyone given any consideration to the 'eerie glowing pits' in the underworld?  What is causing them to glow? (. . .)  I'd say that of all the energy sources that could be sustaining underground life, that seems like the most plausible.
You have a point, but I see the glowing pits as one source (sphere) of magic energy among many.  It works through the standard magic field system.  Surface plants give a lot more variety, and synchronize better with a stated goal by Toady One to have sphere-based surroundings. 
Maybe magic is seasonal.  Sweet Pods only grow in the Spring and Summer because that's the only time when the whatever sphere is in its waxing period.
I can easily concoct a way for mana from surface plants to be seasonal.  Eerie glowing pits?  Not so much. 

I invoked a decrease in the magic level to explain why cavern plants did not grow in winter.  That requires that consumption in the caverns during the fall season is enough to consume it, or at least most of it.  I was setting mana up to be a high-turnover system.  Cavern plants would exhaust the ambient supply in a matter of days to, at most, a month. 

Of course, a whole forest of highwoods (or, worse yet, sun berries) is a lot harder to eradicate than a single dragon, but I did give this some thought. 

Magical Creatures
When it comes to the horn of plenty concept I've got something. So instead of having a Chimera just DIE once it is living outside an area of magical influence, why not have certain traits degrade.

Well, the thing is, some creatures are just "savage versions" of a normal creature, so a giant sperm whale that leaves a savage ocean for a normal one might reasonably shrink down to a normal one. 

And for that matter, there was that story about how a good biome changed to an evil one, and turned satyrs to foul blendecs, which implies that, where it is a change from one sphere's influence to another, it's possible for one type of sphere-aligned creature to turn into some "equivalent" sphere-aligned creature.

The story was Forest Befouled, and I agree with NW_Kohaku's conclusions.  The events at the end seem to explicitly state that a magically altered creature, removed from the magical region in which it was altered, would lose its magic and revert to a mundane state.  The Satyrs didn't die when the surroundings changed; they changed to fit.  Therefore, a giant animal, altered by a Savage (probably Nature or Animal sphere) area, would change to fit mundane surroundings. 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 09:48:11 am by Tristan Alkai »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #158 on: May 14, 2015, 10:29:27 pm »

"Xenosynthesis Energy" was intended to be a temporary linguistic kludge, and I did drift away from the term. 

"Xenoenergeia" is just something I came up with because "Greek words sound sciency, LOL!" anyway, so I don't think strict terminology is necessary, so long as the idea is conveyed. 

The sympathetic aspect of magic
This was something I had overlooked.  There were a few reasons for this. 

1. I had a focus on wilderness areas, which downplayed the effect of all actions by civilized beings.  I may have been insufficiently explicit about this. 
A. By extension, I also downplayed the large fraction of the sphere list that I couldn't figure out how to apply to anything other than civilized beings or something closely related to them (their actions, their tools/possessions/gear, their cities, sometimes their domestic animals). 
B. Obviously, this also downplays all actions by the players. 

Actions by players having an effect are at the core of the purpose behind the xenosynthesis idea. 

Xenosynthesis as an idea was largely started because I was talking realism in farming in a game that has giant magic caverns and plants that have juices "of pure sunshine" and likely will eventually have potions and other blatantly magical things.  The idea driving the Improved Farming thread was that things that are too easy in the current game (like getting infinite food from simply throwing seeds at mud) need to be made into something that the player has to mindfully balance and manage. 

Hence, magical crops, to carry that mentality over, need to have some sort of similar "nutrient" that is depleted or renewed, with appropriate costs associated with the reckless disregard for their power. 

Part of my motivations, as well, was to make something rationally understandable from what seems a rather arbitrary magic system that runs on sympathetic invocations that are largely impossible to infer from the world around you. (That is, every time magic is used in Threetoe stories, it always seems pulled out of the ass on the spot, and therefore, impossible to predict or work with as a player, especially if such magic is put into the game randomly, as the likes of divine metals are.)  Like Bahihs and several others (probably including GavJ,) I'm rather more of a rationalist, and prefer my magic to follow rationally understandable rules at least as far as the natural consequences of their original "miracles" are concerned, even if their fundamental existence is totally BS "miracles" in the first place. 

The key trait, however, is "engineerability," (if you forgive the use of another non-word,) since that is at the core of what makes DF such a fascinating game. 

It is the essence of Dwarf Fortress to hand the player incredibly powerful tools with absolutely no safeties attached so that they have tons of power with which they can engineer marvels or, far more likely, destroy themselves.  Xenosynthesis is simply turning the concept of spheres and biomes into something that is engineerable.

2. How did xenosynthetic (xeno) plants come to be?  Where did the first xeno plant come from? 
A. I have read all of the Threetoe Stories, and none of them showed any intelligent entity demonstrate the ability to alter plants in this manner. 
B. There was that one adventurer (I'll have to look up which story that was) that took advantage of the existing magical properties of a plant (it gave him night vision, which made it easier to function in a kobold cave), but this is not the same thing. 
(Edit) Found it: Orther Pushes His Luck(/Edit)
C. There were various tricks the elves had with their trees, but these came across to me as either further alteration of a plant that was already magical, or an instantaneous spell that did its thing and did not leave the plant with any new abilities other than those that result from an altered shape.  I favor the former, but, either way, this is not what I'm looking for. 
D. Conclusion: I have to write off deliberate action (divine or otherwise) as the source of the xenosynthesis ability. 
E. That left me in the awkward position of figuring out how xeno plants could have evolved naturally. 

This is, by and large, an original idea of my own, a result of the strange mental journey I traveled, and hence, doesn't rest entirely on Toady's works, but at the same time, it doesn't try to contradict them, or "put the genie back in the bottle." The reason I contest GavJ's "chemosynthesis is fine if we just delete amethyst men from the game" argument is that it tries to suggest Toady undo some of his own deliberate work, which doesn't seem likely.  Xenosynthesis is a system that could be used, but isn't necessarily the explanation for what Toady and Threetoe have been building up to.  It is that nature of engineerability, however, that makes me push more for this answer than others. 

Keep in mind, as well, caverns need to exist even in climates with no trees.  The idea that photosynthesis powers cavern ecosystems through magical conveyance through the crust of the planet would mean that it would logically follow that caverns beneath a forest are far more booming with life than caverns beneath a glacier or a desert or a mountain range.  Dwarves, notably, survive on cavern life when where they are living, mountains, are notably devoid of almost all surface life but a few hardy types of grass.  The one species that most depends on the caverns also is the one that lives where the surface has the least life.  This runs completely contrary to what a vertical photosynthetic energy transferal model would predict.   

In fact, this was always sort of supposed to be the purpose of the caverns: its ecosystem is totally divorced from the surface's ecosystem.  It is strange and alien and runs on its own rules. 

At the same time, I should point out that elven tree-shaping seems a long-term and slow process.  Not all their methods are implemented into the game right now, but they presumably just grow trees into the shape of houses, or magic trees into growing wood products for use or trade. 

In any event, xenosynthesis presumes magic exists without overt divine intervention, but exists as a sort of uncontrolled background side effect of magical beings exerting their will on the world, or the presence of "portals" or the like that "leak" xenoenergeia into the world.  Xenoenergeia "forces rapid evolution" as it were, as it changes things to adapt to its presence, or actively takes them over, in the case of things like thralls/zombies. 

In this way, the HFS powering cavern life is part of the explanation, but it doesn't have to be the only one.  There can be many sources of magic "leaks" into the caverns or the surface world, and again, I'd like to see a future of DF where different layers of caverns can be taken over by different spheres like the surface is, such that caverns aren't all globally identical.  (Imagine the Fun of opening up a cavern where all the creatures are song-warped... then digging down to find that the next cavern is a magma-spheric cavern.  Each one might have its own unique flora as well as fauna, rather than just being the thing you tap once, then wall away forever.)

The Magic Goes Away

[snip]

I invoked a decrease in the magic level to explain why cavern plants did not grow in winter.  That requires that consumption in the caverns during the fall season is enough to consume it, or at least most of it.  I was setting mana up to be a high-turnover system.  Cavern plants would exhaust the ambient supply in a matter of days to, at most, a month. 

(Also, I edited to fix that copy-paste error...)

If we are to talk about the seasonality of underground plants, consider how much is unimplemented in the game right now.  The surface plants have no seasons, while underground plants do, thanks to the fact Toady has been increasingly focusing upon adding quantity rather than differntiable qualities to the plants.  The game is supposed to have cavern flooding, and in the 2d version of the game, this was a source of cavern "flora" growth.  Cavern floods were also seasonal, and it could be argued that different "plants" required the soil to be prepared in different ways.  Maybe raw floodwaters bring along with them contaminants that need decomposition by soil microbes to become compatible for the subterranean flora, the same way that raw manure will "burn" a surface crop? Maybe these nutrients need "fermentation" by other soil microbes? Of course, cavern floods themselves need to have a better-explained mechanism for why they generate such life...

However, a major reason I'm leery of almost totally vertical energy transfer is that it predicts that a surface with no real plantlife (such as a mountain) should have a barren cavern... and it not only doesn't, but it critically undermines a vital aspect of game lore.

If the likes of Forgotten Beasts, meanwhile, innately alter the nature of the caverns, then you could say seasonal rampages are part of the life cycle of the caverns...

However, I also think it's worth considering what happens when a dwarf's body is utterly destroyed: It causes a ghost to appear and... do some random thing.  This is, clearly, supernatural, and part of what Toady has said he wants to do is have the souls of dead dwarves continue existing in other planes, where you can just walk up and meet and greet the dead generations of your civ. 

In essence, this is part of what I want to do with xenosynthesis, and the talk about how what player actions do can change the biomes they are in.   If you don't slab your destroyed dwarves, then you have a ramification of ghosts. 

A further thing I want to suggest is that you can tie what is magical in a biome to what the player actually does.  Maybe heroic battles in a locale cause the blooming of courage-sphere plants that have some sort of magical effect because you upped the courage resonance of the area.  These drain xenoenergeia from the area, and might be used in potions related to battle.  At the same time, you might find a special type of plant that releases a specific type of xenoenergeia, but consumes minerals/fertilizers voraciously.  These can be grown (at great cost) to artificially alter the region to make it resonate with a specific sphere.  This isn't all that different from what you've been saying, Tristan, but it doesn't presume it's photosynthetic, and could hypothetically happen in a caverns-only embark under a forbidding glacier where no life survives.  Other plants might transform one type of xenoenergeia into another. 

A key aspect of the Improved Farming concepts that drove Xenosynthesis was that nothing should be entirely free.  You're actively trading something away for something else.  It's probably not worth the same amount (some refuse in the compost bin is not worth as much as the crops it grows or the animals those crops feed) but when you have finite resources to spend, and there are always potential side effects to your actions, your choices become much more weighted and meaningful.

EDIT: Wow... I should really start using that "preview" button again... Another failed bracket close
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 09:54:27 am by NW_Kohaku »
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Tristan Alkai

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2015, 09:46:36 am »

Wilderness
The sympathetic aspect of magic
This was something I had overlooked.  There were a few reasons for this. 

1. I had a focus on wilderness areas, which downplayed the effect of all actions by civilized beings.  I may have been insufficiently explicit about this. 
A. By extension, I also downplayed the large fraction of the sphere list that I couldn't figure out how to apply to anything other than civilized beings or something closely related to them (their actions, their tools/possessions/gear, their cities, sometimes their domestic animals). 
B. Obviously, this also downplays all actions by the players. 

Actions by players having an effect are at the core of the purpose behind the xenosynthesis idea. 

Yes, I see that now.  I just didn't at the time.  That whole section was "after action review" and "how did this mistake happen?"  A lot of my logic started from that premise. 

In other news, am working on what will eventually become a post for Organizing the Spheres, and this distinction between wilderness and civilization will carry over to it. 

Cavern Life
Keep in mind, as well, caverns need to exist even in climates with no trees.  The idea that photosynthesis powers cavern ecosystems through magical conveyance through the crust of the planet would mean that it would logically follow that caverns beneath a forest are far more booming with life than caverns beneath a glacier or a desert or a mountain range.  Dwarves, notably, survive on cavern life when where they are living, mountains, are notably devoid of almost all surface life but a few hardy types of grass.  The one species that most depends on the caverns also is the one that lives where the surface has the least life.  This runs completely contrary to what a vertical photosynthetic energy transferal model would predict.   

In fact, this was always sort of supposed to be the purpose of the caverns: its ecosystem is totally divorced from the surface's ecosystem.  It is strange and alien and runs on its own rules. 

I did have at least a partial reply to this in reply #132, when I mentioned "Portal-Dependent Xeno." 

The Circus was here from day 1, and all six "dwarven crops" are also quite old.  Both can be found in any embark, and have become sufficiently iconic that I would prefer to keep them around.  I had been tacitly assuming that both being available at any location would carry over to subsequent updates. 

Of the six dwarven crops, Plump Helmets and Dimple Cups are explicitly mushrooms.  The other four (Sweet Pod, Quarry Bush, Cave Wheat, and Pig Tail) are presumably xeno plants. 

In other news, I did not think [SPHERE_CAVERNS] fit in any of the surface surroundings.  It does, however, seem to fit the Circus.  I figured on the circus as one of the portals in reply 132, and place all four of the current xeno crops in the "Portal Xeno" category. 

In other words, I assumed a certain floor on how barren the caverns can be, due to mana leaking into the world from the circus below. 

Cavern areas located under fertile surface areas also being "much more booming with life" was, to some degree, intentional.  Also, reply #132 had a section, "Cluster 4: Broadcast," in which I argue that caverns under a desert would also be booming with life.  At least some mountains might subject the plants growing on them to similar conditions of highly reliable light but little or unreliable water, with similar results. 

Actually, I was arguing at that point that caverns under a desert would be much more booming with life than caverns under a forest, since conditions of high light and low water favor broadcast alchemical plants (which are more efficient with water) at the expense of mundane ones, and wetter conditions that foster forests favor mundane plants (which are more efficient with light, since they do not waste a lot of energy on the broadcast). 
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arbarbonif

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2015, 02:04:41 pm »

Since when does Toady care about not confusing players?!  :P
Heh, that is almost exactly what my wife said when I talked to her about this.

I also suggest that megabeasts like Titans are xenoenergeia fountains, as well, as they serve part of the meta-story that DF tries to tell about a twilight of magic. 

In general, the way in which DF's ages operate suggest that all or nearly all magic dies when the "powers" die.  This, in turn, suggests them as the fountains of magical power throughout the world.  Killing the megabeasts turns the world more mundane until only [MUNDANE] creatures and humans remain.  See the tropes Cosmic Keystone, The Time of Myths, and The Magic Goes Away.  Toady's deliberately referencing these tropes as a structural component of his game system.  That probably means something.
That makes a lot of sense.  Having forgotten beasts also be part of that also helps the cavern flora question, since you always seem to get them (so they clearly are around).

Toady hasn't particularly cared about gameplay since the 2d era.  Personally, I tell people DF isn't a game anymore, it's more a performance art project about what a simulation is capable of simulating. 
While this is true, I'm also thinking from a programmer's perspective.  To be able to code something you need to be able to hold in your head.  Granted Toady hasn't shown any sign of "restraint of goals", which is one of the reasons DF is as cool as it is.  The joys of getting to see someone else's strange mood...

So does needing to eat, sleep, make clothes for dwarves, protect dwarves from sieges, avoid cave-ins, avoid drowning, avoid fires, avoid syndromes, not having direct control of dwarves, having dwarves that go berserk or on break, or a host of other things.

Limiting how you control the game, in fact, is part of what makes DF both fun and Fun.  It is the interplay of complex systems that makes it interesting, when each individual system is honestly pretty simplistic and boring on its own.
It is the balance that needs to be considered.  I'm more or less going from my personal view of what is and is not reasonable to be able to avoid.  I can largely avoid sieges and drowning by choosing embark places that don't have neighbors and water (respectively).

You've clearly thought WAY more about this than I have, or am probably willing to :).  I'll just lurk and read, I find this discussion fascinating.

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #161 on: May 16, 2015, 10:15:08 am »

It is the balance that needs to be considered.  I'm more or less going from my personal view of what is and is not reasonable to be able to avoid.  I can largely avoid sieges and drowning by choosing embark places that don't have neighbors and water (respectively).

Well, I'm not suggesting that every random thing you do will cause zombies to pop up and eat your face.  It should take either dedicated effort (or a rigid pattern that you will not deviate from even when multiple warning signs appear) to make a truly significant change. 

Again, I think the requirement to slab so as to prevent ghosts if bodies are destroyed is a good example.  That's a magical punishment for a specific action - destroying bodies - in a game that otherwise actually rewards destroying bodies. (Since you don't have to carve out lavish catacombs to bury them, and they can't become zombies if their bodies are destroyed.) As I pointed out at the time of necromancers being introduced, why wouldn't every culture cremate its dead when necromancers are running into your cemetaries and causing a zombie attack every other Tuesday? 

Players would need to perform deliberate actions, like making all births happen in a single tracking region and all deaths occur in a different one.  (That is, if we go by Tristan's vertical 48x48 embark tile idea, make all births happen in the west of the fort, and all deaths happen in the east of the fort so that zombies will spawn in the east, and life magic creatures spawn in the west.) Even then, it would take years of deliberate action (or simply blind management), and there would be alternate ways of dealing with the issue.  Making some sort of shrine to a deity of funerary rites right next to your main killing grounds might pacify the vengeful spirits that draw your fortress closer to a vengeance-related sphere.

If you make Forgotten Beasts a xenoenergeia fountain, for that matter, then their rampages would bring with them a sudden blooming of the spheres they represent.  (This is also part of why I think sphere power should be tracked horizontally - megabeasts are basically always tied to a specific layer.)  Whether you kill them or not may become a real choice.  If you use some sort of bait (like the artifact bait trap) and keep them locked in an inescapable location, you could use them a as a living magic battery.  Better yet, keep them chained up in a pedestal on the far end of a mist-generating moat like they're King Kong at the far end of your dining room. (What could possibly go Fun?!)

Likewise, it means ancient altars could be the roots of a negative biome.  Heroes might travel into a land with a dark shrine in it, destroy the altar, and restore balance to a region tainted by the worship of foul demons, returning the dead to rest, and foul beasts to mundanity.  For the extra-dwarfy, this might be an embark with an altar on the map drawing powerful creatures or the like.

And finally, upon thinking about it for a while, someone mentioned the problem with satyrs "instantly" becoming foul blendecs... but since we're talking about how plants absorb the magic, then it could well be that we make those plants the source of transformation.  I mean, evil regions have grass with eyeballs on it, and grass made of meat right now.  Wouldn't you say it's appropriate for that sort of thing to have some sort of negative effect upon an herbivore that eats it?  Such things would also mean that if you somehow managed to grow sunberries, or at least, whip vines or other non-evil plants, and keep them fed on those, then they'd be fine.  You could feed your sheep and cows only cave moss in an evil surface biome... although if the caverns have a different sphere-alignment, then who knows what that cave moss will do to them?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #162 on: May 16, 2015, 11:02:48 am »

Yes, I see that now.  I just didn't at the time.  That whole section was "after action review" and "how did this mistake happen?"  A lot of my logic started from that premise. 

Well, I don't approach this from a stance of blame.  I can understand review of what you said, but normally, I do that internally, and share the revisions. :P

If anything, criticism of my ideas, especially on a gameplay front, are why my suggestions are as detailed as they are.  I made Improved Farming Revised as a thread because the original Farming thread became so long from continued arguments that people couldn't keep up with what my current ideas even were, and pushes to make the idea less micromanagement-heavy drove a lot of the automation ideas that form a lot of its basis.

In other news, am working on what will eventually become a post for Organizing the Spheres, and this distinction between wilderness and civilization will carry over to it. 

Well, I'm not married to the organization in that one thread by any means (it's buried for a reason...) but I'm not sure why we need a distinction between wilderness and civilization. 

I mean, the world is created with sentient, civilization-building creatures living upon it.  Civilization is built at year 1.  In essence, civilization is natural in this world, and it makes sense for spheres of wealth and crafts and marriage to exist for as long as sky and mountains and death to have existed. 

In the sorts of Greek myths or Norse myths to which DF's mythos tends to trace itself backwards, there wasn't really a distinction made between deities that were civilized or wilderness deities, either. 

In other news, I did not think [SPHERE_CAVERNS] fit in any of the surface surroundings.  It does, however, seem to fit the Circus.  I figured on the circus as one of the portals in reply 132, and place all four of the current xeno crops in the "Portal Xeno" category. 

In other words, I assumed a certain floor on how barren the caverns can be, due to mana leaking into the world from the circus below. 

Cavern areas located under fertile surface areas also being "much more booming with life" was, to some degree, intentional.  Also, reply #132 had a section, "Cluster 4: Broadcast," in which I argue that caverns under a desert would also be booming with life.  At least some mountains might subject the plants growing on them to similar conditions of highly reliable light but little or unreliable water, with similar results. 

Actually, I was arguing at that point that caverns under a desert would be much more booming with life than caverns under a forest, since conditions of high light and low water favor broadcast alchemical plants (which are more efficient with water) at the expense of mundane ones, and wetter conditions that foster forests favor mundane plants (which are more efficient with light, since they do not waste a lot of energy on the broadcast).

Well, even then, glaciers and completely barren deserts should have relatively barren caverns, as there's no surface plantlife surviving there.  (And my current embark is partly a completely barren savage desert that has no life but the two-legged rhino lizards.) Likewise, hotter regions, with its more direct sunshine, should still be getting more cavern life (if they aren't barren deserts) than the colder regions that get less sun.  A region above the arctic circle, after all, receives no sun at all at times of the year.

It also means differences in cavern life are mostly in volume of life, not in manner of life.  All the magic descending from plants is going to be sun magic, or something similar.  (Unless you're arguing the specific plant changes what magic it is... but then, all plants grow on the surface in a massive jumble, because they all are sun-aligned, themselves...)  Hence, I'm not sure it supports a diversity of spheres.

Anyway, this is a bit beyond the major reasons I'm leery of putting too much power in the hands/leaves of surface plants, and that's that I think the game is more suited towards a horizontal shifting of magic power.  Right now, biomes exist across tens to thousands of embark tiles, and carry their spheres throughout their biome.  (That is, if a forest is evil, the whole forest is evil.) Making magic horizontal carries this through - if your embark is half evil forest and half savage savanna, you have two surface biomes that can carry the sphere changes you inflict on the map.  Each cavern layer has its own record.  Odds are, unless you're playing a 2x2 map, this results in less total data to be recorded, and regions that players need to keep in mind, as well. 

Besides that, there are already visible physical barriers differentiating the different layers of the caverns from the surface.  Making a 48x48 tile column suddenly have different magic than another 48x48 column in the caverns would be fairly arbitrary and odd to the players looking at it. 

It's also worth keeping in mind that, although they do a much poorer job of it than their 2d counterparts, the caverns are meant to be roadblocks and marks of progress as a fort.  The 2d Dwarf Fortress notably got harder as you went through each of the obstacles that form the basis of why we have caverns now.  The cave river had easier monsters, and was necessary for farming.  If/when you built a bridge over the river, you couldn't entirely wall it off to protect your dwarves from all dangers, and its floods were an inconstant danger.  The early parts of the mountain also had less useful metals, forcing you to rely upon copper, alone. The abyss had tougher monsters, and also gremlins, that could sneak and pull levers for various Fun.  The magma river let you build magma forges, but spawned fire-spitting monsters that were highly dangerous.  Beyond that still were the best metals, but also the most dangerous of enemies. 

Each layer of the caverns was distinctly different.  To some degree, Toady tries to make that true even now, and when you dig up the caverns, they are different colors, and have different things growing and living in different caverns, with the colorful mushrooms up top in the watery caverns, and the all-red blood thorns and mosses near the bottom where the magma is.  It better serves this idea to make magic horizontal, with a more strict idea of where each layer begins and ends.  (No more nether caps and blood thorns growing in the soil layers near the surface...) Again, that way, you can open up a music cavern on one layer, and suddenly, it's a gems cavern on the next.
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Tristan Alkai

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #163 on: May 27, 2015, 12:06:11 am »

In other news, am working on what will eventually become a post for Organizing the Spheres, and this distinction between wilderness and civilization will carry over to it. 

(...) I'm not sure why we need a distinction between wilderness and civilization. 

I mean, the world is created with sentient, civilization-building creatures living upon it.  Civilization is built at year 1.  In essence, civilization is natural in this world, and it makes sense for spheres of wealth and crafts and marriage to exist for as long as sky and mountains and death to have existed. 

In the sorts of Greek myths or Norse myths to which DF's mythos tends to trace itself backwards, there wasn't really a distinction made between deities that were civilized or wilderness deities, either. 

I can't approach the spheres without making the distinction between wilderness and civilization.  There are a lot of spheres I can't apply to a wild animal without turning it into some type or variant of animal person (and therefore no longer really an animal) in the process: Dance, Gambling, Rumors, and Writing, just off the top of my head. 

One god might claim spheres associated with both categories, but the overlap happens at the level of the god, not of the individual spheres. 

Organizing the Spheres
That post got pretty huge as I worked on it with my word processor.  The limit on this forum is 40,000 characters per post, and I handily exceeded that limit long before I felt satisfied with it, so I will put some of it here (the parts I feel I can post here without derailing the thread) to see what kind of response I get.  I apologize for any references to cut sections that slipped through the editing. 

To start with, I checked the wiki page on the spheres and counted 130 of them.

I divided the spheres into two broad categories:
1. Major spheres define a fairly broad category, which has a coherent unifying theme. 
2. Minor spheres generally fit within the broad category or theme defined by a major sphere.  Some are shared between two major spheres.  I did make a conscious effort to keep these to a minimum, and to make sure none were claimed by more than two. 

Within the major spheres, there are two categories:
1. Wilderness spheres can be meaningfully applied to an area that does not have civilized beings living in it.  Most refer to a natural force of some sort. 
2. Civilization spheres are directly relevant, or at least directly connected, to civilized beings.  This includes their actions and desires, their possessions, the tools they make, and the structures and cities they build.  In short, they can’t be meaningfully applied to an area that does not have civilized beings living in it. 

The Wilderness spheres are, essentially, the ones I can attach significant engineerability to, since they represent the environment at large rather than something internal to the fortress.  More importantly, they are also the ones I can most easily attach substantial results from engineering them. 

I wound up with a total of 9 Wilderness major spheres, and 13 Civilization major spheres. 
> The Wilderness major spheres are Caverns, Darkness, Death, Fire, Moon, Nature, Sun, Water, and Weather.
> The Civilization major spheres are Agriculture, Art, Chaos, Crafts, Family, Festivals, Happiness, Misery, Order, Peace, Scholarship, Travelers, and War.

Order
1. I will list the major spheres, and each entry will have a section listing which minor spheres that fit within it. 
2. This post will only cover the Wilderness spheres.  The civilization spheres were much more difficult to attach engineerability to, so I felt they were a bit off topic (in addition to simply pushing me far over the character limit). 
3. Within the above constraints, spheres will be listed in alphabetical order.

Alterations
1. I think [SPHERE_SEASONS] is hard to work with.  It isn’t quite broad enough to be a major sphere, and as a minor sphere it becomes disputed territory between too many major ones.  I am splitting SEASONS into SPRING, SUMMER, FALL, and WINTER.  It makes more sense to me to have different gods associated with Summer and Winter, and those two in particular fit best in different major spheres. 

Format
(All of the major sphere descriptions are spoilered for brevity.)
Name of the major sphere. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. CAVERNS
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2. DARKNESS
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3. DEATH
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4. FIRE
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5. MOON
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6. NATURE
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7. SUN
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8. WATER
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

9. WEATHER
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

DUALISM
I'll make a list, here, of what I would see off the bat as a set of decent "category" spheres that their "friend" spheres are hangers-on to...  Also, I'll try to make some "opposites", like the way that Good and Evil are opposite, while things like "Savage" are unrelated to other alignments.  Of course, don't get hung up on this idea, and go for whatever you guys think makes for a fun sphere.  It should just be a decent starting point. 

Instead of having a dualist system (one versus its diametric opposite), however, we can also have a stand-off between multiple spheres - for example, day and night oppose, but twilight and morning stand between the two extremes.  (This might be resolved by having a "are any of these powerful" metric, and then having a "which one of these is the most powerful" metric, so that not all terrain becomes one of those spheres.)

Okay, here we go:

2. Nature <=> Moon <=> Death
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Xenosynthesis and magic fields
« Reply #164 on: May 30, 2015, 05:46:12 am »

1) The mantle is about 1/5 of a mile down below the surface, instead of about 25 miles in a typical earth crust. And caverns extend most of the way instead of a trivial distance down. Thus, caverns have MANY HUNDREDS of times more heat proximity than earth caverns do from below. That's a lot of energy for life. Take hydrothermal vents here and there on Earth, and imagine them every 10 feet instead, nearly everywhere there's water down there, and you have plenty of energy to sustain larger animals across many world tiles of cave.
It is interesting to note that the deeper underground the cavern layers you go, the larger creatures become.

This finiteness is a key aspect of the idea - like with real ecosystems, it drives competition, and sets the ultimate limits on what these creatures or systems built off these creatures can accomplish.
This notion of finiteness definitely appeals to me. The idea of being able to permanently exhaust some sphere of the world, like making fish populations extinct, or killing all megabeasts to begin a new era - can you imagine the consequences of an unscrupulous Dwarf lord who manages to permanently sully a lake, volcano, forest or entire race? God of War had the nice aesthetic where as you killed gods, their respective domains would fall into chaos. By the time all the big gods are dead, tornadoes fill the skies, the seas are impassable torments, the ground shakes and vomits fire, and supposedly every single letter you send through the mail is lost. While such apocalyptic changes should be reserved to things as serious as deicide (God is dead and Urist killed him. Literally), smaller changes would be really interesting.

Ultimately, I find myself siding with this interpretation:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm on jseah's tracks here, with spheres being attached to biomes and biomes effectively becoming more dynamic with the moving of spheres. Flood the world with stagnant water? Mosquitoes will begin appearing. Flood the world with magma? Fireflies (literal) and fire serpents begin appearing. Create a forest in the desert? Begin attracting nature sphere critters and all that. And I'm always interested in the idea of some creature like a Titan changing the tiles of what they stand on to their sphere, so an evil one would leave a trail of wormy tendrils or a river one leave a trail of freshwater. Conversely, destroy every Titan of that sphere, destroy every biome of that sphere and every temple of that sphere - you'd rather organically engineer the destruction of that sphere in the physical sense until all that remained was its metaphysical sense. Excepting the odd occasion where a waning deity bestowed the power to start a last-ditch revival attempt, there'd be an ever-increasing decay. There'd be no scripted x influence = x effect (though I would add, weather effects/biome interactions like spooky clouds and undead resurrection being determined in such a way would actually be wunderbar), everything would organically come about from the critters that like the conditions you've made.

And god dammit, I want to know what's at the end of an eerie glowing pit.

And the caverns are clearly getting their energy from aquifer turtles.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 05:47:43 am by Loud Whispers »
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