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Author Topic: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms  (Read 5652 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« on: February 05, 2011, 10:16:12 pm »

Eternal Suggestion Voting candidate

To start with, I should get the usual acknowledgements out of the way: Most importantly, much of what I am going to be talking about is already slated in numerous arcs already on the old devpage.  The Caravan Arc, Army Arc 2, Kingdom Arc, Diplomacy Arc, Villain Arc, and a couple of the other arcs are involved in this suggestion.  I also want to say that this was significantly inspired by talks on the FotF thread, and ZebioLizard2's Dwarven Imperialism thread.  In fact, I would have just continued that thread, had I not really, really wanted to use this thread's title.

The point of this thread is not to suggest any of the things that are in those arcs, or any of the several threads that have similar ideas again, but rather suggest ways to integrate the "Kingdom Mode" and "Dwarf Mode" with these various ideas in a way that adds as much depth to the game as possible.  It serves as a sort of counterpoint against the Class Warfare and Improved Farming threads, which focus upon making the game have more of a difficulty curve and depth in later gameplay, by making the game more about looking outward beyond your walls, and making the outside world have more depth.

To illustrate some of the things I want to deal with, some Toady quotes:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here's the thing about the Modes - Kingdom Mode is supposedly the grand strategic view of your entire nation, while Fortress mode is focused upon a single site, while Adventurer mode is about just one character, and the things he/she impacts.  The trick is making the wildly different scales in time and geography make sense with one another. 

My inspiration in this is the "Council Meetings" in some of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms games, and the ability in those games to be everything from the emperor of a kingdom, leading armies to war and setting domestic policy to an administrator seeing those policies out to a general bringing victory in war to a single lone vagabond, adventuring alone in the countryside.

In this idea, there would still be those three different modes of play, granting freedom of playstyle, but they would have some overlap if the player so desired to dabble in one or the other. 

Spoiler: Fortress Mode (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Multiplayer Kingdom (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Kingdom Mode (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Battles Mode (click to show/hide)

As a part of Battles Mode, be aware of Lanchester's Laws as a means of swiftly comparing or modeling combat.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 03:18:45 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 10:28:44 pm »

One additional Mode (stupid forgetting an entire section since it's been so long since I started writing):

Spoiler: Historic Mode (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Strangers and Agents (click to show/hide)

EDIT AGAIN:
Spoiler: Cultural Conflict (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 02:46:11 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Brotato

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2011, 05:04:36 pm »

I like this it would make fortress guards have more functionality for the purpose of actually guarding stuff i.e the booze stockpile, nobles, and other important things.
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Dwarf Fortress: The only game where people will hold a logical discussion about why dwarves are putting on clothes.
OK, I have to reload the save.
There was a bit of a problem regarding flashfreezing, a ballistae, and a barrel of dwarven ale. Gonna fix it up.

Cespinarve

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 01:50:33 am »

Sounds delightfully complex, without being obfusticatingly confusing- the best kind of complex!
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Nice one, not sure when I'll be feeling like killing a baby but these things are good to know.
This is why we can't have nice things... someone will just wind up filling it with corpses.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 02:49:10 pm »

Well, I put up another section on the second post, after having thought about ways to make this more compelling, and came up with a whole new dimension to expand the game along... again. 

I really need to stop doing this.  At this rate, I'm going to suggest we get players to work towards solving the Unified Field Theory.

Anyway, I'm a little surprised by how little reaction this has gotten.  I would have thought "make the player take one-year turns" and "psuedo-simultanious fortress running" would have been a little controversial, at least.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Dutchling

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 02:54:17 pm »

I wish I would still live when this is all implemented :(
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Brotato

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 03:08:08 pm »

maybe it didn't get so much controversy because the way you suggested things made sense and were logical. however I think that for multiplayer instead of making it kinda aggravating to do all that e-mail stuff you could have some sort of server that you and your party are a part of and when you save it sends a backup of some sort to the server and when all the backups from the different players have had one year gone bye the next year can be played. obviously my little idea needs work but I think it would be easier then the e-mail way (at least how you described it) and if the server had some sort of matchmaking service you could find people who would want to play multiplayer.
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Dwarf Fortress: The only game where people will hold a logical discussion about why dwarves are putting on clothes.
OK, I have to reload the save.
There was a bit of a problem regarding flashfreezing, a ballistae, and a barrel of dwarven ale. Gonna fix it up.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2011, 03:22:53 pm »

Unfortunately, there's little way to tell the difference between "nobody is interested" and "everyone agrees with you" when they both have the same lack of response.  As much as it would inflate my ego to assume not having anyone argue with me means I am obviously right, experience has taught me otherwise.

The thing about a multiplayer server is that many suggestions for multiplayer follow a similar design example.  I have read a few cases where Toady has mentioned that he isn't really interested in setting up any sort of mulitplayer functionality that would involve actually coding in network programming, and that for the forseeable future, multiplayer will be confined to the sorts of community games that we have now.  As such, I specifically tried to tailor my version of multiplayer to be as similar to "multiplayer" as it exists in community games now to try to make that one more appealing to Toady as a suggestion.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Cespinarve

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2011, 03:54:25 pm »

At this rate, I'm going to suggest we get players to work towards solving the Unified Field Theory.

You already did that: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76007.msg1920005#msg1920005
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Nice one, not sure when I'll be feeling like killing a baby but these things are good to know.
This is why we can't have nice things... someone will just wind up filling it with corpses.
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife chopping off what's incomplete and saying: "Now it's complete because it's ended here."

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 05:06:09 pm »

At this rate, I'm going to suggest we get players to work towards solving the Unified Field Theory.

You already did that: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76007.msg1920005#msg1920005

... and before I clicked that, I thought you were going to link me to my Volume and Mass thread, since it most covers the aspects of modeling physics...
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Cespinarve

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 09:14:43 pm »

Oh no. Always go for the pun.
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Nice one, not sure when I'll be feeling like killing a baby but these things are good to know.
This is why we can't have nice things... someone will just wind up filling it with corpses.
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife chopping off what's incomplete and saying: "Now it's complete because it's ended here."

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 10:40:38 pm »

... I didn't even see the pun until you mentioned it...  *groan*
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

freeformschooler

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 11:12:25 pm »

Surprised this didn't generate much of a reaction, too. I probably won't live to see these implemented. However, I'm not really AGAINST the idea of a multiplayer fortress/kingdoms mode being based around PBEM style interaction (even though it would go well with the forums, and it's one of the most logical ways to do it), but I can bet there'd be some other ways to model it. Some work well in theory, very few would in practice I'd bet.

I would love to live to see Kingdom Mode. Honestly, it's like a fixation I have on the idea -- playing as some dude just sitting on his throne giving orders, having his servants come up and ask for advice, resolving complicated disputes and so on. It would be wonderful.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 01:14:52 am »

I don't think that too many of these things would be so complex that they would take 10 years or so to impliment...

The groundwork for them is already laid, I just think that bits like having multiple layers of loyalty should be included in the arcs that are already going in, like Diplomacy Arc and Army Arc
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

JJtoocool

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Re: Bromance of the Dwarven Kingdoms
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 08:53:34 am »

If this were implemented, (and I hope it is) we might have to rename Dwarf Fortress to Dwarven World Simulator. This is the complex I like, game changing complex.
 
 Just hope the UN wont get together and give dwarves rights, since they'd have loyalties, thoughts and general lives.   ;)
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