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[arkhometha]

A setting of 250 has generated multiple worlds with both deep and shallow metals in every tile for me. I found a vein of hematite while digging my entrance tunnel. Of course, I was embarked on a 64 z-level tall mountain/cliff/volcano. On the other hand, there are multiple metal veins visible on every z level... TBH, it looks like much more than .18.

I suspected this setting are world-relative. What's the size of your world?

[Girlinhat]

Anyone genned a world with 0 scarcity?

[arkhometha]

Anyone genned a world with 0 scarcity?

Minimum is 100. Dunno if you can mod.

[Girlinhat]

Hashing through the .txt has often yielded a wider range of options.

[arkhometha]

B test:
Pocket region. Same settings. Mountain biome.

18 mountains tiles so 3.6 tiles to be tested.

B1. Shallow, Deep metal + flux
Maximal regionoffset seen:
CLEAR TOURMALINE : 11
BROWN JASPER : 41
BLOODSTONE : 56
OPAL_REDFLASH : 70
MORGANITE : 70
OPAL_CRYSTAL : 73
CASSITERITE : 78
TUBE AGATE : 91
GOSHENITE : 109
OPAL_CLARO : 138
PRASE : 154
RESIN OPAL : 173
BLUE GARNET : 175
AMBER OPAL : 188
MORION : 190
CITRINE : 228
PINEAPPLE OPAL : 243
GOLDEN BERYL : 257
HELIODOR : 300
ALMANDINE : 316
OPAL_PINFIRE : 316
OPAL_LEVIN : 348
AMETHYST : 391
SCHORL : 433
PINK TOURMALINE : 549
MELANITE : 571
EMERALD : 577
RHODOLITE : 589
MILK QUARTZ : 641
BLACK ZIRCON : 712
HORNBLENDE : 802
PYRITE : 905
RED ZIRCON : 980
GREEN ZIRCON : 1011
SMOKY QUARTZ : 1032
QUARTZ_ROSE : 1047
CLEAR ZIRCON : 1320
CRYSTAL_ROCK : 1382
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 2273
SPINEL_PURPLE : 2746
JET : 5036
NATIVE_GOLD : 6105
TETRAHEDRITE : 10569
NATIVE_COPPER : 18214
MICROCLINE : 18430
SLADE : 81879

B2.  Deep + flux + aquifer

Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
SPINEL_PURPLE : 6
RHODOLITE : 42
OPAL_CLARO : 44
OPAL_REDFLASH : 51
BROWN JASPER : 59
TUBE AGATE : 119
AMBER OPAL : 151
GOSHENITE : 152
OPAL_CRYSTAL : 165
GREEN TOURMALINE : 166
MILK QUARTZ : 200
RESIN OPAL : 220
PINEAPPLE OPAL : 238
CLEAR ZIRCON : 244
BLUE GARNET : 254
WHITE JADE : 286
SMOKY QUARTZ : 306
CITRINE : 472
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 508
BLOODSTONE : 510
EMERALD : 547
SCHORL : 630
MORION : 915
QUARTZ_ROSE : 979
GREEN ZIRCON : 984
CLEAR TOURMALINE : 985
OPAL_LEVIN : 1203
MORGANITE : 1286
AQUAMARINE : 1455
ALMANDINE : 1552
AMETHYST : 1593
PRASE : 1654
ONYX OPAL : 1772
LAPIS LAZULI : 1827
RUBICELLE : 3237
CINNABAR : 4648
PYRITE : 4729
CRYSTAL_ROCK : 5228
HORNBLENDE : 6604
JET : 6663
GALENA : 9533
CASSITERITE : 11260
TETRAHEDRITE : 43008
MICROCLINE : 191906
SLADE : 212036

B.3 Deep metal only.

uses world ptr
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
CLEAR TOURMALINE : 41
SPINEL_PURPLE : 57
OPAL_REDFLASH : 197
BROWN JASPER : 207
TUBE AGATE : 210
MORGANITE : 221
OPAL_CLARO : 233
GOSHENITE : 275
AMETHYST : 284
BLOODSTONE : 312
CASSITERITE : 323
OPAL_CRYSTAL : 343
RESIN OPAL : 381
GREEN ZIRCON : 395
AMBER OPAL : 454
CITRINE : 519
BLUE GARNET : 532
MORION : 562
MILK QUARTZ : 609
PINEAPPLE OPAL : 690
CLEAR ZIRCON : 738
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 898
ALMANDINE : 1056
SCHORL : 1201
SMOKY QUARTZ : 1208
EMERALD : 1522
HORNBLENDE : 3769
CRYSTAL_ROCK : 5931
JET : 18494
TETRAHEDRITE : 50031
SLADE : 332715

B.4 Volcano embark. no Metals listed.
uses world ptr
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0
ORPIMENT : 68
CITRINE : 118
PINK TOURMALINE : 169
SPINEL_RED : 211
YELLOW ZIRCON : 232
PRASE : 234
RED TOURMALINE : 251
PYRITE : 353
GREEN ZIRCON : 380
RUTILE : 490
HORNBLENDE : 490
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 496
BLUE GARNET : 600
SMOKY QUARTZ : 705
MOSS OPAL : 789
PYROLUSITE : 839
CHERRY OPAL : 1042
OPAL_CRYSTAL : 1062
CLEAR ZIRCON : 1124
BROWN ZIRCON : 1180
MILK QUARTZ : 1316
PRASE OPAL : 1690
CLEAR TOURMALINE : 2614
PITCHBLENDE : 16503
MICA : 18595
SLADE : 19196
MICROCLINE : 39701

B5. Standard freezing tundra hill.
uses world ptr
Maximal regionoffset seen:
VARISCITE : 6
JELLY OPAL : 23
RUBY_STAR : 24
GOLD OPAL : 35
TOPAZOLITE : 52
RHODOLITE : 54
MELANITE : 63
RED TOURMALINE : 83
PERICLASE : 86
RUBY : 92
FIRE AGATE : 93
SALTPETER : 108
SPINEL_PURPLE : 121
PYRITE : 171
DENDRITIC AGATE : 204
MORION : 271
RED ZIRCON : 274
RUBICELLE : 291
BLACK PYROPE : 340
CLEAR ZIRCON : 357
STIBNITE : 567
OPAL_BANDFIRE : 604
OPAL_BLACK : 661
BLUE GARNET : 689
GOSHENITE : 785
CLEAR GARNET : 817
QUARTZ_ROSE : 822
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 841
CHERRY OPAL : 903
PINK GARNET : 962
SMOKY QUARTZ : 1035
OPAL_LEVIN : 1189
AMETHYST : 1241
BLACK ZIRCON : 1381
SPINEL_RED : 2358
BROWN ZIRCON : 2475
CITRINE : 4839
TETRAHEDRITE : 5735
BAUXITE : 5787
LAPIS LAZULI : 7161
SPHALERITE : 7447
PRASE : 8401
SLADE : 16529
ALUNITE : 36201
MICROCLINE : 49305

Results:
Metals are more abundant. Stones too. All in all. Didn't see an iron ore, though, and I looked.
Conclusions:
I think the Mineral Occurrence Setting is linked to the world size. Using 2500 in a pocket world gave much more metal per embark than in a small region. Maybe this is linked, so to a large world you will need to use 500 setting or everywhere. To a medium world you should use 3000 or frequent. to a small world you should use 5000 or sparse. A smaller, 7000 or rare and to a pocket 9000. The italic portion is a theory. But I seriously begin to think this may be linked to world size.

[arkhometha]

Test C.
Same seed, pocket world, scarcity set to 8000. Shallow metals appears ONLY with aquifers. Mountains only have deep metals. Single Volcano now has metal.

C1. Mountain biome. Deep metal only.
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
BROWN JASPER : 45
OPAL_LEVIN : 123
BROWN ZIRCON : 245
PLUME AGATE : 291
QUARTZ_ROSE : 308
WOOD OPAL : 311
TUBE AGATE : 312
GREEN JADE : 382
VIOLET SPESSARTINE : 529
OPAL_REDFLASH : 577
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 865
BLACK PYROPE : 889
RED ZIRCON : 1047
OPAL_PFIRE : 1407
PRASE : 1751
OPAL_BLACK : 2002
LIGNITE : 6553
GALENA : 11316
JET : 16327
MICROCLINE : 47665
SLADE : 306531

C2. Same as above.
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
BROWN JASPER : 22
OPAL_LEVIN : 208
PLUME AGATE : 271
BROWN ZIRCON : 283
TUBE AGATE : 341
WOOD OPAL : 373
QUARTZ_ROSE : 388
GREEN JADE : 391
VIOLET SPESSARTINE : 423
OPAL_REDFLASH : 517
RED ZIRCON : 970
BLACK PYROPE : 1070
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 1353
OPAL_PFIRE : 1609
PRASE : 1792
OPAL_BLACK : 1831
LIGNITE : 5542
GALENA : 12126
JET : 15954
MICROCLINE : 47495
SLADE : 49729

C3. Volcano. Aquifer.
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
DIAMOND_YELLOW : 3
DIAMOND_BLUE : 5
DIAMOND_CLEAR : 7
DIAMOND_GREEN : 9
DIAMOND_BLACK : 10
DIAMOND_RED : 12
DIAMOND_FY : 180
DIAMOND_LY : 221
GOSHENITE : 464
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 487
STIBNITE : 537
PRASE : 632
SPINEL_PURPLE : 788
MILK QUARTZ : 980
REALGAR : 1194
BLUE GARNET : 1333
OPAL_PFIRE : 1493
OPAL_CRYSTAL : 1622
CHERRY OPAL : 1786
NATIVE_ALUMINUM : 2881
KIMBERLITE : 5517
GALENA : 9933
COBALTITE : 14783
TURQUOISE : 16142
SLADE : 18283
MICROCLINE : 21005

C4. Aquifer + flux + deep.
uses world ptr
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
MILK OPAL : 93
PINK GARNET : 104
OPAL_REDFLASH : 104
CHERRY OPAL : 160
MELANITE : 281
TOPAZ : 343
VIOLET SPESSARTINE : 352
BROWN ZIRCON : 362
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 428
YELLOW ZIRCON : 430
AQUAMARINE : 447
WAX OPAL : 448
CLEAR ZIRCON : 491
ALMANDINE : 507
RUBICELLE : 656
QUARTZ_ROSE : 688
OPAL_HARLEQUIN : 694
PINK TOURMALINE : 764
PYRITE : 801
PRASE : 829
OPAL_PFIRE : 895
PINEAPPLE OPAL : 1113
GREEN ZIRCON : 1513
BLACK ZIRCON : 1729
ONYX OPAL : 1790
TETRAHEDRITE : 6847
PRASE OPAL : 8261
CITRINE : 8921
SLADE : 12193
MICA : 21596

Results. As theorized, there are less metals in each site. An 8000 to 10000 should be perfect with a pocket region. The stones didn't dimmed, tough, so I think they have an X more-or-less fixed value for the "all" world creation. So in a large world the stones are distributed and in a pocket one they are clustered.

No iron again. I wonder why. And then again, strange behavior: With a 2000 more abundant setting the volcano didn't bear metal. Now with 8000, a scarcer setting, the volcano had. Maybe the more scarce, the more evenly distributed? This match with the 10000 setting where people get little of everything.

[Lekegolo Khanid]

I think the Mineral Occurrence Setting is linked to the world size.

If that is the case then the worlds all having the same scarcity number would be a bug. I doubt toady would plan for fortresses on large worlds to have less metal than fortresses in small worlds. To me it seems more like scarcity simply increases the size of veins. That would mean that the reason that you get less metal sometimes with the lower scarcity is because the larger veins push other veins away and off the embark. I think the only way to put this to rest once and for all would be to do the following.


1. Gen world with max MS (metal scarcity).
2. Embark multiple times to cover a large square area of the map (16 4x4 embarks?).
3. Use DF reveal + screen captures to make a multi-z map of the entire area (this will also show if veins are consistant across embarks, or if they are just gen'd when you start a fort)
4. Repeat.
5. Repeat with half MS. (get two maps at half MS)
6. Repeat with Min MS (two with min)

Two maps for each to counter possible rare bugs, obviously the larger the sample size (number of maps) the more accurate the results.


EDIT:

With a 2000 more abundant setting the volcano didn't bear metal. Now with 8000, a scarcer setting, the volcano had. Maybe the more scarce, the more evenly distributed?

This supports my theory.

[arkhometha]

If that is the case then the worlds all having the same scarcity number would be a bug. I doubt toady would plan for fortresses on large worlds to have less metal than fortresses in small worlds. To me it seems more like scarcity simply increases the size of veins. That would mean that the reason that you get less metal sometimes with the lower scarcity is because the larger veins push other veins away and off the embark.

The worlds don't have all the same scarcity value. You can change this value. in .18 maybe this hidden value changed with the world size, maybe not. It was all abundant. .19 Maybe this occurred, we will never know, so we can't argue if it's a bug or if it's intended. In regard I saying that the "the Mineral Occurrence Setting is linked to the world size. ", I was trying to say that for small worlds, a higher scarcity value is better if you don't want to get a lot of metals. Not that this was hard linked to the world size and etc.

And the veins size things makes sense, that was what I was at in the "With a 2000 more abundant setting the volcano didn't bear metal. Now with 8000, a scarcer setting, the volcano had. Maybe the more scarce, the more evenly distributed?".

Your tests step were kind done in test site 4. The only thing rest to do is take a screen of a large area and see if the veins are there.

[arkhometha]

Test site 4a:
max embark size. 3000 scarcity.


uses world ptr
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
MORION : 251
HORNBLENDE : 706
SPINEL_PURPLE : 1019
GREEN ZIRCON : 1334
CLEAR GARNET : 1852
VIOLET SPESSARTINE : 1887
SCHORL : 2498
NATIVE_ALUMINUM : 3087
RED ZIRCON : 7155
CRYSTAL_ROCK : 9384
BLACK ZIRCON : 9575
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 10626
NATIVE_COPPER : 21809
GALENA : 27603
MICROCLINE : 53783
TETRAHEDRITE : 330892
SLADE : 1299161

8Z level down, top-left most screenshot.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Test site 4b:
max embark size. 3500 scarcity.
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
YELLOW SPESSARTINE : 2357
SCHORL : 2950
BROWN ZIRCON : 3439
WAX OPAL : 5272
OPAL_PFIRE : 5925
MORION : 6122
SPINEL_RED : 6798
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 10647
PRASE : 14537
PINK GARNET : 19540
GALENA : 21811
MOSS OPAL : 27469
ILMENITE : 57026
BONE OPAL : 62259
SLADE : 1286961

The tetra is gone and galena is still here. Screenshot of the same place as 4a

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

site 4c: 3250 scarcity.

uses world ptr
Maximal regionoffset seen: 0.
BONE OPAL : 882
GREEN TOURMALINE : 1347
CITRINE : 1477
MILK QUARTZ : 1533
GRAPHITE : 1608
OPAL_CRYSTAL : 4317
SMOKY QUARTZ : 4644
REALGAR : 4783
YELLOW SPESSARTINE : 6314
RAW_ADAMANTINE : 10628
CLEAR GARNET : 12784
WOOD OPAL : 13602
HORNBLENDE : 14999
OPAL_HARLEQUIN : 15226
GALENA : 24349
BROWN ZIRCON : 56980
SLADE : 1369934


Tetra gone too. Don't think that a screen is needed.

I can't believe that in a max sized embark with a variation of 250 in scarcity makes 330k tetra disappear, not even a single unit left behind, but with the galena still on the map with little variation. So i guess this take out the "moving vein" theory.

Of course one could argue that the galena is the deep metal and because of that is less subjected for the vein mobility, but I don't know if the world gen works this way.

[Lekegolo Khanid]

The worlds don't have all the same scarcity value. You can change this value. in .18 maybe this hidden value changed with the world size, maybe not. It was all abundant. .19 Maybe this occurred, we will never know, so we can't argue if it's a bug or if it's intended. In regard I saying that the "the Mineral Occurrence Setting is linked to the world size. ", I was trying to say that for small worlds, a higher scarcity value is better if you don't want to get a lot of metals. Not that this was hard linked to the world size and etc.

I was just saying that I  couldn't see toady setting it up in a way where world size directly affects Fortress mode game play in such a large (and in many peoples opinions, negative) way. Not everyone tinkers with the Advanced world gen. Best way to test this would be just two large samples with the only thing changed being the world size, and obviously locations. the lack of control with a test like that would mean you would need a VERY large sample though.

Looking at your pictures brings a few new possibilities to mind, enough in fact that I give up on solving it. Dwarf fortress science is just not very high on my priority list, and this seems like it would be rather time consuming to solve. Best of luck to you Arkhometha, and any others.

[arkhometha]

I was just saying that I  couldn't see toady setting it up in a way where world size directly affects Fortress mode game play in such a large (and in many peoples opinions, negative) way. Not everyone tinkers with the Advanced world gen. Best way to test this would be just two large samples with the only thing changed being the world size, and obviously locations. the lack of control with a test like that would mean you would need a VERY large sample though.

Looking at your pictures brings a few new possibilities to mind, enough in fact that I give up on solving it. Dwarf fortress science is just not very high on my priority list, and this seems like it would be rather time consuming to solve. Best of luck to you Arkhometha, and any others.

Thanks! I know what you mean. I'm also giving up on this, as I think I got the answers I was looking for. I still don't understand how the scarcity system works, but I think I can predict where to go to get some minerals I want, like a good dwarf would!

Edit: Ironically enough, I'm in a embark just to test something and got iron+flux and a reasonable amount of it. 

[Eric Blank]

Alright, so testing is done.
Any idea what setting is closest to the abundance of minerals in .18? I saw 650 being suggested earlier in the thread...

[Lekegolo Khanid]

650 should be around right. I just started a small 750 embark and I noticed a cluster of gems on a cliff wall, once I dig a little I'll edit this post and give you some more detail.

[daishi5]

i don't see any raw candy there

I think that is possible in a 2x2 embark. You need a 4x4 at minimum to be guaranteed candy.

I saw this and went back to check with reveal, and there is no candy in my 2x2 embark.  I don't think that is a bug though, because I know before that I have seen 3x3 embarks with only 1 spire in a corner, which would leave a 2x2 section with no fun times. 

[Sutremaine]

What about using a world that's as uniform as possible? The world painter starts with a single elevation and a single biome (hills), and if you give dwarves the ability to start off anywhere green they'll be available for fortress mode. Null out as many worldgen options as possible, fix the rest of them to a single value, and you'll have a clean slate to work with.

There'll still be rivers though, and they take ages to generate on even a pocket world if the whole thing's flat.