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Author Topic: River freezes over in temperate embark?  (Read 7221 times)

darthweder

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River freezes over in temperate embark?
« on: March 10, 2011, 08:49:17 pm »

So I just moved up to .21 and chose a nice easy temperate embark to play with some clay and suddenly winter comes around and the rivers freeze.  I didn't think rivers froze in temperate environments?
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white_darkness

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 08:51:25 pm »

They do, just like in the real world.  I've seen them not freeze, freeze for a month, up to one place where the river was frozen for 10 months of the year (but somehow this was "temperate").
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krisslanza

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 09:02:42 pm »

The only time you shouldn't see water freeze is in 'Warm' climates I think.

Also keep in mind that while the embark may have said it's Temperate, it's possible for it to be temperate but near the Cold side still. But, yeah, water freezing in Temperate is normal - it should only freeze for a short time.

wuphonsreach

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 01:39:41 am »

So I just moved up to .21 and chose a nice easy temperate embark to play with some clay and suddenly winter comes around and the rivers freeze.  I didn't think rivers froze in temperate environments?
Even in .18, I'm always cautious about Temperate embarks and plan on the river being frozen for at least part of the year.   I've had a few where it was frozen most of the year, and others where it freezes once in a blue moon.

I always try to quickly carve out a 11x11 room underground near the river, and put a floodgate at the far side away from the river in a little 1x3 corridor.  That lets me get 11x11 worth of water underground before the snow starts falling in late autumn and any above ground water freezes.  Once the floodgate and fortification tile(s) are in place, I can flood it by digging out the channel tile.  Later in the winter I can then tunnel towards the floodgate from the other side once I design my water system.

[floodgate] -- [fortification] -- [cistern] -- [fortification] -- [stairs up] -- [channeled tile] -- [river]

I've done small cisterns that are 5x5, but go down a few Z-levels, or I've done the lazy 11x11, single-depth.  Multiple Z-depths are ideal, especially if they get smaller as you go down to the next Z-level.  So 9x9 on level 140, 7x7 on level 139, 5x5 on level 138, 3x3 on level 137 with at least one 2-3 tile long tunnel with a floodgate at the end.

The fortification tile is to keep any nasty critters out of the cistern.   I will almost always put fortifications on both sides of a floodgate.  It should also deal with building destroyers that would like to destroy those floodgates.
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Pukako

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 03:00:49 am »

I'm playing my first game in 21.

Temperate, but river frozen all year round.  Go figure...

I've got a volcano, but I'll wait until I get the first mass migration before using that to try and melt it.  Hilarity will ensue, no doubt.
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darthweder

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 05:03:24 am »

So I just moved up to .21 and chose a nice easy temperate embark to play with some clay and suddenly winter comes around and the rivers freeze.  I didn't think rivers froze in temperate environments?
Even in .18, I'm always cautious about Temperate embarks and plan on the river being frozen for at least part of the year.   I've had a few where it was frozen most of the year, and others where it freezes once in a blue moon.

I always try to quickly carve out a 11x11 room underground near the river, and put a floodgate at the far side away from the river in a little 1x3 corridor.  That lets me get 11x11 worth of water underground before the snow starts falling in late autumn and any above ground water freezes.  Once the floodgate and fortification tile(s) are in place, I can flood it by digging out the channel tile.  Later in the winter I can then tunnel towards the floodgate from the other side once I design my water system.

[floodgate] -- [fortification] -- [cistern] -- [fortification] -- [stairs up] -- [channeled tile] -- [river]

I've done small cisterns that are 5x5, but go down a few Z-levels, or I've done the lazy 11x11, single-depth.  Multiple Z-depths are ideal, especially if they get smaller as you go down to the next Z-level.  So 9x9 on level 140, 7x7 on level 139, 5x5 on level 138, 3x3 on level 137 with at least one 2-3 tile long tunnel with a floodgate at the end.

The fortification tile is to keep any nasty critters out of the cistern.   I will almost always put fortifications on both sides of a floodgate.  It should also deal with building destroyers that would like to destroy those floodgates.

I've been using vertical bars to block critters from my cisterns, I can't believe I never thought of fortifications!  That's so much easier! 
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arzzult

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 05:22:02 am »

I once had a "warm" map that had water in the lower left corner freeze about a minute in rl time. The successive lag spikes were rather annoying.
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Tanelorn

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 07:41:40 am »

I've been using vertical bars to block critters from my cisterns, I can't believe I never thought of fortifications!  That's so much easier!

Grates work very well too, and are easy to get. A grate cannot be destroyed from below, so if you make a cistern, channel a tile and put a grate on it, you get a perfectly safe way to get to the water. Or pump it (pump can pump through grates). I believe wells work through grates and so does fishing.
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Cotes

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 08:25:32 am »

Can water freeze if it's in a fortification tile?

Also...

I've been using vertical bars to block critters from my cisterns, I can't believe I never thought of fortifications!  That's so much easier! 

Actually, no it's not. There's currently a bug that makes fortifications stop blocking creatures if the tile has 7/7 magma or water, meaning their use for liquid filtering is pretty limited.
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
Ashes are technically fire-safe.

wuphonsreach

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 11:23:25 am »

Can water freeze if it's in a fortification tile?

Also...

I've been using vertical bars to block critters from my cisterns, I can't believe I never thought of fortifications!  That's so much easier! 

Actually, no it's not. There's currently a bug that makes fortifications stop blocking creatures if the tile has 7/7 magma or water, meaning their use for liquid filtering is pretty limited.
That explains the presence of carp/fishies in my cistern... even getting past some of the fortification tiles.  I'll have to make sure that water levels stay below 7/7.

If the water is underground (i.e. a tunnel, not a channeled tile), then the fortification tile does not freeze as it's "underground".  I think the qualifier is "inside" when you look at the tile with the "k" menu.
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Cotes

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2011, 11:39:33 am »

I suppose the best way to deal with it is to use both fortifications and bars with a drain that can be used to lower the water level if a level 2 building destroyer comes along. You know, since maintaining a constant <7 water level can be often difficult and FPS unfriendly.
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
Ashes are technically fire-safe.

Granite26

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 11:47:23 am »

Are swimming building destroyers that much of a concern?

Triaxx2

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2011, 01:59:09 pm »

How undwarfish. The proper method of keeping building destroyers out is to seal the entry channel to your cistern is to pump in a tile of magma to make an obsidian plug and keep them out that way. Then, when you need to reopen it, Urist McSacrificialLamb gets assigned the job of mining out the plug.
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Cotes

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2011, 02:02:55 pm »

There are dwarves that are nothing but useless sacrifices - Miners are not one of them.
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Well if you remove the [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE] tag from dwarves I think they have like 2-4 children each time they give birth. And if you get enough mothers up on the pillars you can probably get a good waterfall going.
Ashes are technically fire-safe.

twwolfe

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Re: River freezes over in temperate embark?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2011, 02:11:23 pm »

There are dwarves that are nothing but useless sacrifices - Miners are not one of them.

can i sig this?
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There are dwarves that are nothing but useless sacrifices - Miners are not one of them.
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