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Author Topic: SALES Thread  (Read 1369813 times)

Sirus

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15810 on: April 19, 2019, 04:59:12 am »

I don't care if Epic is a spy for the Chinese government or not. There's no freaking excuse for them to be looking at that sort of info.

That, combined with their sleazy "exclusive" dealings, is enough to turn me off Epic for the foreseeable future. I didn't take Uplay's freebies, I didn't take Origins freebies, and I won't take Epic's either.
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BigD145

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15811 on: April 19, 2019, 03:12:14 pm »

One of the only ways Epic can pay content creators for exclusivity is if they are selling information to 3rd parties on the side or majorly backed by some other entity that wants that info. They are running a business to make money at the very least.
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Mephisto

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15812 on: April 19, 2019, 03:20:12 pm »

Or... They're investing some of that Fortnite money into something that may not make money right now but gets the Epic store onto people's computers and into their minds. Or literally anything else that isn't a shitty conspiracy theory.

You know. Something kind of like what Amazon did? When you've got buckets of money to back up your platform, you can afford to throw money at problems.
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E. Albright

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15813 on: April 19, 2019, 03:38:44 pm »

They're throwing money at problems, yes. That's absolutely true. But how they're conducting themself suggests that their long-term strategy is skeezy and intrusive, and that they're all too willing to find ways to gain and maintain market advantage w/o bothering to provide a quality product.

I'd look more at Facebook as far as their endgame than at Amazon (not that Amazon are saints - they're monopolists/monopsists too).

At this point, large tech platforms wanting to sell your data for a profit is not "a shitty conspiracy theory", it's a proven business strategy.
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Mephisto

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15814 on: April 19, 2019, 03:52:35 pm »

At this point, large tech platforms wanting to sell your data for a profit is not "a shitty conspiracy theory", it's a proven business strategy.

Ah, but that's not what anyone has been saying. In Epic's case, every single instance of data mining has been justified by the peanut gallery, implicitly or explicitly, as "lol they're owned by the Chinese government and shipping that data straight to China".
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Retropunch

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15815 on: April 19, 2019, 04:00:52 pm »

Ah, but that's not what anyone has been saying. In Epic's case, every single instance of data mining has been justified by the peanut gallery, implicitly or explicitly, as "lol they're owned by the Chinese government and shipping that data straight to China".

As Albright says, it's not a conspiracy theory - they've proven to be taking data and looking into bits of your PC/browsing history that they shouldn't really be doing (and haven't said that they would be doing). I'd say it's highly likely they're not doing it as some sort of Chinese plot, and more just to mine the data for marketing. Regardless of why they're doing it, I think it's very wrong - the rule is (or should be) 'tell me what data you're grabbing and why, and don't go looking up stuff that isn't directly related to the functionality of the program'. 

I would have little problem with them being another store - it's annoying that everything gets spread around but it's not actively harmful. Doing exclusives (and keeping on doing it with no sign of stopping) makes it a 'get this or don't get the game' situation, which then leads you to have to consent to their shady data collection if you want to play whatever game it is. That's not good, and combining that with a terrible, barely functional platform and it just annoys the hell out of me.

No conspiracy, just bad business.
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Shooer

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15816 on: April 19, 2019, 04:14:06 pm »

I hate that every time people have actual criticisms about Epic BOTH sides devolve to arguing about the "chinese connection" and data gathering.  Every major modern company is selling, gathering and buying data.  There's no way they're not selling to governments or organizations working with governments.  The whole argument is just a distraction from actual, quantifiable bad business and anti-consumer actions.

And I hate it so much.  It's practically calculated as a distraction.  Stop talking about Epic gathering data as some huge thing. 

Talk about their poor security that's cost people thousands.  Their poor customer support ability and practices that do nothing to help people with legitimate problems until it's long hit social media.  We shouldn't be hearing about these problems, they should be fixed before an outcry.
How about the fact they launched a store as competition but didn't do anything to meet basic online store features.  The feature sets that you can get in any number of templates that could provide a better customer experience.
Or how about trying to bring the console wars of the 90s-00s to the PC by throwing money at exclusives.  Thank god they aren't going ALL the way into buying studios, the history of which is rife with good developers going bad.

Those three things are why I will not be using the epic store.  Legit things that are there, can be seen and CAN be fixed.
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Kagus

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15817 on: April 19, 2019, 04:21:21 pm »

Yeah, they haven't made a very good name for themselves as far as "competent, usable storefront" technicalities go. Basically their whole selling point so far has been "We're currently throwing lots of money at bribes!", which of course isn't a very sustainable business practice... And when that all dies out and they move to sweep the broken storefront's rubble under the rug, all the games that WERE purchased on it will become unusable.

Shooer

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15818 on: April 19, 2019, 04:34:23 pm »

I have a feeling in the near future the epic launcher and store will be fine.  It's practically inevitable.  Just right now I see it as a hazard to use.  Once reports of it's alleged faults peter off and they make a more usable product I'll be fine using it.

Epic makes to much money just from their engine to not collapse.
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Radsoc

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15819 on: April 19, 2019, 04:45:57 pm »

I'm basically presupposing that my computer is full of legal spyware I installed myself. I only use the Epic web interface (just collect their free games at the moment), so it's pretty harmless in comparison. I use Google and got social media and all of that as well. There is not much of a choice, unless I am to penalize myself out of the principle of privacy. I don't think sporadic individual boycotts will solve the core problem. The problem is that good new liberating technology is bundled with a lot of ballast crap as a byproduct of how the economy inevitably works. So, I think the only solution is on a non-local systemic level, as soon as the only other economic system is in place. ;)

Epic is a bit off topic, but on a related note there, I would like to know if Windows 10 is spyware and if MS still uninstalls programs they don't want you to have?



« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 04:49:02 pm by Radsoc »
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SalmonGod

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15820 on: April 19, 2019, 04:57:47 pm »

Basically their whole selling point so far has been "We're currently throwing lots of money at bribes!"

That and "Valve's become evil because they're too big and have no competition!  Somebody's got to threaten their monopoly to keep them in line!"... which most arguments based on this have seemed to me to be pretty baselessly alarmist. 

Valve deserves some criticisms, but has overall done a pretty good job.  Aside from some international legal cases that are eyebrow-raising, they haven't yet begun acting like a bloated corporate evil, imo. 

Steam's run into some issues as a platform, mainly to do with content control, but it's because those problems are genuinely difficult.  Everyone acts like they're not trying, yet they've iterated through multiple approaches over the last several years, and every single one has resulted in angry mobs.  When I ask those mobs what they think the solution should be, the response is generally "I don't know but they have so much money they should be able to figure it out."

Every other platform so far has been complete shit and I avoid them as much as possible.  Epic's doesn't look to be breaking that trend.

The console wars are a good comparison.  Every large company in the industry just wants control over their users that they can use to reduce the size of the industry and their competition.  Valve were the first to put themselves in a position where they could have done this on PC, and the way I see it, they've never done that.  If they were, at bare minimum you'd think they would disallow DRM-free games from being sold on Steam or games that require launching through a competitor's storefront.  Instead they gave us the indie boom.

Epic is a bit off topic, but on a related note there, I would like to know if Windows 10 is spyware and if MS still uninstalls programs they don't want you to have?

MS is definitely intrusive as fuck, and gets worse with every update.  But I've never had it uninstall software on me.  And I'm not exactly a conventional user.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 05:00:08 pm by SalmonGod »
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Retropunch

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15821 on: April 19, 2019, 05:46:20 pm »

I hate that every time people have actual criticisms about Epic BOTH sides devolve to arguing about the "chinese connection" and data gathering.  Every major modern company is selling, gathering and buying data.  There's no way they're not selling to governments or organizations working with governments.  The whole argument is just a distraction from actual, quantifiable bad business and anti-consumer actions.

And I hate it so much.  It's practically calculated as a distraction.  Stop talking about Epic gathering data as some huge thing. 

It is a big thing - not because other companies don't do data gathering, but that Epic was grabbing stuff off your computer that wasn't really related to it at all. I don't expect my finance software to start grabbing my browser history, or GIMP to start storing my email contacts somewhere. More than that, shady data grabbing should *always* be a big thing - just because it's become common doesn't mean it's a good or even acceptable thing.

Steam isn't amazing, but as SalmonGod says, they could have been truly Evil. They had a pretty much monopoly on digital distribution and could have clamped down hard - but they didn't. They worked alongside GoG and they didn't start doing anything shady. The worst was the paid mods store thing - and they backed off that when it became apparent that everyone hated it.

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With enough work and polish, it could have been a forgettable flash game on Kongregate.

BigD145

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15822 on: April 19, 2019, 05:46:39 pm »

I hate that every time people have actual criticisms about Epic BOTH sides devolve to arguing about the "chinese connection" and data gathering.  Every major modern company is selling, gathering and buying data.  There's no way they're not selling to governments or organizations working with governments.  The whole argument is just a distraction from actual, quantifiable bad business and anti-consumer actions.

And I hate it so much.  It's practically calculated as a distraction.  Stop talking about Epic gathering data as some huge thing. 

Talk about their poor security that's cost people thousands.  Their poor customer support ability and practices that do nothing to help people with legitimate problems until it's long hit social media.  We shouldn't be hearing about these problems, they should be fixed before an outcry.
How about the fact they launched a store as competition but didn't do anything to meet basic online store features.  The feature sets that you can get in any number of templates that could provide a better customer experience.
Or how about trying to bring the console wars of the 90s-00s to the PC by throwing money at exclusives.  Thank god they aren't going ALL the way into buying studios, the history of which is rife with good developers going bad.

Those three things are why I will not be using the epic store.  Legit things that are there, can be seen and CAN be fixed.

Anybody data gathering is a problem. A huge problem. A huge problem that's anti-consumer and costs consumers much money. This includes Epic. But this isn't actual criticism? You got yourself tied in a knot here.
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Shooer

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15823 on: April 19, 2019, 06:31:06 pm »

Anybody data gathering is a problem. A huge problem. A huge problem that's anti-consumer and costs consumers much money. This includes Epic. But this isn't actual criticism? You got yourself tied in a knot here.
It is a criticism.  The problem is that among the many more tangible problems people have with the epic launcher and the epic store it becomes the only one people talk about.  It get's hand waved away by BOTH sides in their arguments.  It starts as part of the discussion, becomes the focus of the discussion and then the end of that same discussion.  It's become a poison to actual debate on the subject of epic.
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AzyWng

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Re: SALES Thread
« Reply #15824 on: April 19, 2019, 07:28:28 pm »

I just think I should say this again - I'm sorry for the racist statement. It wasn't warranted or even helpful at all, and I should have known that before I posted it.
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