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[10ebbor10]

I like the idea of adding variety to the types of powered machines we can build, but why duplicate something which we can already do?

Because the current set up is hard to do, but more importantly clunky and seriously CPU intensive.

[Adrian]

Building materials:
3 blocks
2 mechanisms
1 chain and 1 bucket for every z level below the pump to the collection point.

Seeing how there's two sides to the chain (an empty half going down, and a full half coming up) i say 2 chains and 2 buckets per z-level would be more appropriate.
Also, chains and buckets are dirt-cheap. So building this pump would hardly be a drain on resources.

I like the idea of adding variety to the types of powered machines we can build, but why duplicate something which we can already do?

Because pump stacks are extremely complex and require knowledge of how fluids and mechanical energy behave in Dorf Fort.
Also constructing a pump stack without problems is something only veteran players can do.

And should Toady implement pipes for moving water we can use screw pumps for moving liquids horizontally and chain pumps for moving liquids vertically.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I kinda thought it was obvious that a multi-level liquid pump would be for replacing pump stacks.

Obviously not, since it took a few read-throughs to even NOTICE the reference to z-levels.

The weight of the buckets will be balanced between the up and down sides of the chain, but the water itself has weight and you've lifting the entire weight of the full buckets up. Plus the structure shown in the illustration on the wiki page is MUCH larger than a pipe with a screw in it.
I played a balancing act, making chain pumps more expensive, slower, and bigger in exchange for it being much more efficient and MUCH easier to setup.

More efficient, despite being slower? I'd like to see the math on that. How deep do the pumps have to be before a chain pump as described would be more efficient?

And as for necroing, I haven't really kept up with suggestions since I posted this but necroing was seen as just as bad as posting yet another multiplayer/multithreaded/steampunk/ect... suggestion.

Necroing. Is. Okay. On. The. Suggestions. Subforum.
Sorry about the TV Tropes link.

Also, chains and buckets are dirt-cheap. So building this pump would hardly be a drain on resources.

Buckets, yes, as much as beds or barrels. What about ropes?

I like the idea of adding variety to the types of powered machines we can build, but why duplicate something which we can already do?

Because pump stacks are extremely complex and require knowledge of how fluids and mechanical energy behave in Dorf Fort.
Also constructing a pump stack without problems is something only veteran players can do.

I hardly consider myself a veteran, but I think I could figure out a pump-stack if I had to!

And should Toady implement pipes for moving water we can use screw pumps for moving liquids horizontally and chain pumps for moving liquids vertically.

...
Screw pipes should probably be able to move water horizontally, but also vertically (although not much).

[crazysheep]

@everyone who said pumpstacks are tricky to figure out: not really. I tried building a water pumpstack in my first successful fort, and the wiki helped a lot with figuring out how to place everything on different z-levels. And I'm not exactly very good at DF.

As for the CPU intensive bit, I think you're right - pumpstacks are CPU intensive. But this is mainly because of the flowing liquid calculations: streams are equally CPU intensive.

[Adrian]

Also, chains and buckets are dirt-cheap. So building this pump would hardly be a drain on resources.

Buckets, yes, as much as beds or barrels. What about ropes?

pig tail -> thread -> cloth -> rope.
Or you could import the intermediate goods or ropes directly. I usually get tons of cloth bins or rope from the mountainhomes, whether i ask for them or not.

Screw pipes should probably be able to move water horizontally, but also vertically (although not much).

Screw pumps (the real life variety)are not designed to produce large amounts of pressure, and thus cannot push liquids up far through pipes. They are however excellent at moving liquids over little height difference at decent flow rates. Basically screw pumps lift water up the length of the pump and drop it afterwards
If you want to push water up a pipe, you'll have to start thinking about centrifugal pumps. They produce large pressures and high flow rates, but require much more energy to operate.
Also i don't think Dorfs should be around rotating machinery. You know, with their limbs and all.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Re ropes: That's a crop, plus harvesting, plus three reactions worth of dwarf-time. Not really all that cheap, neh? Especially since it requires nit only planters but three other professions I've rarely needed...granted, I clothe my fortress mainly with clothes from the dead, bit still, it's not a terribly cheap thing compared to 50 or 90% of things you make.

Re: Screw pumps: They can move fluid up, though, and all I'm asking is a preservation of current function. Also, they're safe, safer than a hole down to the water like the chain pump would be.

[Pyro627]

I want this because it looks easy. It requires a lot of work by your dwarfs, of course, but that only makes sense.

[zilpin]

I propose an easy to implement alternative.

Give us the ability to attach mechanical energy to a well.
That gives us a Rope Pump. (-ish)

The way wells function would not change.  Make it a command that can be performed on the well itself, using mechanical parts and a pipe, then selecting a direction.  It could then be operated by hand, or power drive placed next to it.
It is also inherently balanced by its very nature.

This would be fairly easy for Toady, and be a great addition to the game.
Especially since it cannot be abused or exploited (taller=much lower).  Pump Stacks would still be needed for megaprojects.

[Neowulf]

Obviously not, since it took a few read-throughs to even NOTICE the reference to z-levels.

Really?
Third line of the post is: "Chain pumps are pretty ancient and would be a great answer to multi-z-level pumping."

More efficient, despite being slower? I'd like to see the math on that. How deep do the pumps have to be before a chain pump as described would be more efficient?

1 pump every 3rd tick is basically 3x the power required to pump, since you need 3 pumps to make up the volume.
So for the same water output, a chain pump consumes 30 + 6*Zlevels while a pumpstack consumes 10 * Zlevels.
A 8 Z pump height for a pumpstack is 80 power required, while a chain pump would require 78 power.
10 Z height: pump 100, chainpump 90.
100 Z height: pump 1000, chainpump 630.

8 levels is the break even point, anything taller than that and chain pumps are more efficient power wise.

Necroing. Is. Okay. On. The. Suggestions. Subforum.
Sorry about the TV Tropes link.

I just have to ask, why are you so hostile on this point?
When I posted this necros were frowned upon, that's the reality of the matter. Emphasizing that it's perfectly OK now doesn't really matter.


Zilpin: I looked at rope pumps, but they are quite different from wells and you can't move liquid death with wells anyway. Though I suspect that's an oversight, what dwarf doesn't want to cart around buckets of molten earth?

[zilpin]

Zilpin: I looked at rope pumps, but they are quite different from wells and you can't move liquid death with wells anyway. Though I suspect that's an oversight, what dwarf doesn't want to cart around buckets of molten earth?

It was my understanding that screw pumps cleaned water, as do wells, this would be the same.  Not sure what you mean by "liquid death".
Using entirely magma safe components could make it capable of pulling magma, leading to !!FUN!!

I wasn't proposing that it dump buckets at the output, but rather that attaching machinery would instead dump a 1/7 deep water/magma in the destination direction, similar in operation as screw pumps.  Using it would not require the dwarf to find a bucket.  An presumably, if you're pulling magma, you would remove the activation point with an axle, and typical isolation features.


I'm not suggesting the perfect be-all-end-all, just something that meets most goals for a quicker built yet balanced alternative to screw pumps.
And, most importantly, lets Toady copy and paste code to implement it.  It's quick and easy programming, adds features to existing items and objects instead of destabilizing the game with new ones.

[hanni79]

I think I would go for 2*1*z. Also, I would add a Pipe Section at the top, for the following reason : If you simply output it directly besides it (over the block marked with a red X), the construction needs to block water itself completely, since it could flow back in the "empty" space . Adding the tube acting like a block gives you space to actually channel the water without getting instant fun.

Like in the image shown below, the bottom right tile beneath the construction would need to bear water. Output is to the left of the "Tube Block"


I would add it to the "b"uild / "C" Wall,Floor, Stairs menu, using u/m to define z-height and a/w/d/x for the direction. When being built, the dwarves install two gears (brown "*", top left and bottom right), then add two buckets and two ropes for each z-Level covered at the sides of the gears. Power has always to be applied to the top gear.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Neowulf: Sorry about the hostility. I have to say that a lot. Necroing is O.K on the suggestions subforum, and preferred over making another thread.

The idea seems fine, overall. However...could a dwarf pump it by hand?

[Blade Master Model 42]

This looks like a neat idea. Even if some people have a relatively easy time working out pump stacks, some of us just don't, and this has historical basis. +1.

The idea seems fine, overall. However...could a dwarf pump it by hand?

They should be able to, I think. I can hardly see why not.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, a screw pump requires 10 power, but a chain pump can easily require over a hundred. Dozens, at the least, once it gets more efficient than pump stacks.
It makes sense to do something like this:

1. Make the power a dwarf can provide vary based on strength and pump operator skill.
2. Create a building that provides power, but requires a dwarf to power it when you want power. Hand crank?
3. Dwarves can only pump a chain pump if they can provide enough power; if not, you need a waterwheel or a bunch of dwarves cranking away and providing power.

[Neowulf]

I think I would go for 2*1*z. Also, I would add a Pipe Section at the top, for the following reason : If you simply output it directly besides it (over the block marked with a red X), the construction needs to block water itself completely, since it could flow back in the "empty" space . Adding the tube acting like a block gives you space to actually channel the water without getting instant fun.

The idea is a 3x1, walkable-solid(over hole)-solid(output). You wouldn't have to worry about backflow any more than a normal pump.

However...could a dwarf pump it by hand?

That is a bit of a sticky point.
I prefer your power vary by strength idea, but that would require a rewrite of the powering code that toady may or may not have in mind already. I don't see it as a worth the effort just for this one case.
Since dwarf/animal power building is very heavily suggested it's probably the most likely candidate to end up in game at some point. I wouldn't mind that one bit.