Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 27

Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released  (Read 179394 times)

TomiTapio

  • Bay Watcher
  • OldGenesis since 2012
    • View Profile
    • My Flickr animal photos
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #150 on: April 02, 2011, 07:47:44 pm »

missile that will hunt dwarves down in spite of dwarves doing nothing to really provoke them besides stand near them. 

(And giant badgers are apparently something that would terrify a war elephant.)
Let's say the territorial badgers are angry at the dwarves for invading their territory.
Sure the rage param could be 1..1000 instead of 1..20, or it could have a timer "if enraged in the past 6 hours, don't enrage".

Elephants are gentle beasts and their parameters really don't let them fight back, they just run while bleeding.
Giant badger size is about 150kg, 10x badger, size of a deer or pony. But they're angry! Could we fling them from a badgerapult at the enemy?
Also, I count giant badger's [CLUSTER_NUMBER:4:12] as a bug/oversight.
Logged
==OldGenesis mod== by Deon & TomiTapio. Five wood classes, four leather classes. Nine enemy civs. So much fine-tuning.
47.05e release: http://dffd.bay12games.com/who.php?id=1538
OldGenesis screenshots: https://twitter.com/hashtag/OldGenesis?src=hashtag_click&f=image
My Finnish language file: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=14884

Buttery_Mess

  • Bay Watcher
  • 11x11
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #151 on: April 02, 2011, 10:10:42 pm »

Now we've got pastures, cat disposal is very easy, so who cares?
Logged
But .... It's so small!
It's not the size of the pick that counts... it's the size of the man with the pick.

Greiger

  • Bay Watcher
  • Reptilian Illuminati member. Keep it secret.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #152 on: April 02, 2011, 11:25:24 pm »

1 Pit badger horde over retracting bridge.
2 Lure goblins under retracting bridge.
3 Pull the lever
4 Collect goblinite and badger meat.
5 ???
6 Profit Just seize all the trader stuff anyway.
Logged
Disclaimer: Not responsible for dwarven deaths from the use or misuse of this post.
Quote
I don't need friends!! I've got knives!!!

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #153 on: April 02, 2011, 11:29:37 pm »

missile that will hunt dwarves down in spite of dwarves doing nothing to really provoke them besides stand near them. 

(And giant badgers are apparently something that would terrify a war elephant.)
Let's say the territorial badgers are angry at the dwarves for invading their territory.
Sure the rage param could be 1..1000 instead of 1..20, or it could have a timer "if enraged in the past 6 hours, don't enrage".

Elephants are gentle beasts and their parameters really don't let them fight back, they just run while bleeding.
Giant badger size is about 150kg, 10x badger, size of a deer or pony. But they're angry! Could we fling them from a badgerapult at the enemy?
Also, I count giant badger's [CLUSTER_NUMBER:4:12] as a bug/oversight.

Except it's not the badger's territory, the badger is roaming into the water buffalo's territory.  It was a pasture for the water buffalo since embark, and the badgers just roamed in. 

Having creatures that are fierce and fly into a rage at the sight of a natural enemy, or when they are in danger is one thing - flying into a rage the instant they see ANY OTHER CREATURE besides another badger is another.

The Prone To Rage numbers don't matter at all if they fly into a rage so easily - it might as well be a range of 1 to 1, since they are in constant rage.  The rage function needs to be recalibrated so that they don't fly into a rage simply because they see another creature.

(Also, the giant badger is 300+ kg, and it's 20 times the size of a normal badger... that's still much smaller than giant tigers, which are 1,900 now that "giant" now actually means "more than twice the size of a normal creature".  However, with these animals, it seems like attrition is more important than actual combat competency.  Four dogs beat a giant tiger.)
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

profit

  • Bay Watcher
  • Finely Crafted Engravings... Or it didn't happen.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #154 on: April 03, 2011, 02:40:26 am »

Attrition is sometimes very effective.... Ever seen a pack of wolves take on a bear?  Sure the bear can dish it out at first.... But the wolves attack and attack...
Logged
Mods and the best utilities for dwarf fortress
Community Mods and utilities thread.

Dradym

  • Bay Watcher
  • if its hard, overly complex, but fun, its a dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #155 on: April 03, 2011, 03:32:44 am »

badgers kinda do that though...get all pissy if they see any threat at all
Logged

Spectre Incarnate

  • Bay Watcher
  • Possibly inside a dragon's toothy maw.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #156 on: April 03, 2011, 03:50:27 am »


Also, I count giant badger's [CLUSTER_NUMBER:4:12] as a bug/oversight.
Badgers live in clans of up to 15 or so, so why is that a bug?

Having creatures that are fierce and fly into a rage at the sight of a natural enemy, or when they are in danger is one thing - flying into a rage the instant they see ANY OTHER CREATURE besides another badger is another.
Agreed, that's pretty dumb.. they are extremely rage prone, but only when the need to fight arises, so if they get into a fight they should immediately go into a rage, but not beforehand.

Quote
(Also, the giant badger is 300+ kg, and it's 20 times the size of a normal badger... that's still much smaller than giant tigers, which are 1,900 now that "giant" now actually means "more than twice the size of a normal creature".  However, with these animals, it seems like attrition is more important than actual combat competency.  Four dogs beat a giant tiger.)
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Badgers are large weasels, along with wolverines, and they are like wolves when they do have to fight. They can and will take down larger predators such as bears and lions by working together, so why couldn't a group of the giant versions do the same?

« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 04:01:22 am by Spectre Incarnate »
Logged
The in-game text has punctuation!  Who knew?
Mister Adams,
How many licks does it take to get to the [candy] center of a Dwarf Fortress?

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #157 on: April 03, 2011, 11:46:15 am »

Also, I count giant badger's [CLUSTER_NUMBER:4:12] as a bug/oversight.
Badgers live in clans of up to 15 or so, so why is that a bug?

A giant badger shouldn't just be exactly the same thing as a badger, but bigger, is what I think he was saying.  Larger creatures need to eat more, which means they need to spread out their territory and stick to smaller groups.

Having creatures that are fierce and fly into a rage at the sight of a natural enemy, or when they are in danger is one thing - flying into a rage the instant they see ANY OTHER CREATURE besides another badger is another.
Agreed, that's pretty dumb.. they are extremely rage prone, but only when the need to fight arises, so if they get into a fight they should immediately go into a rage, but not beforehand.

badgers kinda do that though...get all pissy if they see any threat at all

If we have a scale from 1 to 20 for how "rage-prone" something is, though, we could simply use 20 for the "flies into a rage at the sight of anything at all" type of aggression. 

1 should be something that is more rage-prone than a normal creature, but not so much more as to be a huge, marked difference between the prone_to_rage:1 and the normal creature.

Just looking at badgers in another embark, they seem to run away from the pasture creatures or woodcutters when they come near them about 3/4ths of the time, then fly into a rage 1/4 of the time.  Whenever the badgers aren't in a rage (or the badgers are unconscious because they got kicked by a dwarf and lost an arm), dwarves ignore them and path past them.

When they do fly into a rage, it's chase-the-dwarf-to-the-edge-of-the-map time.  Setting some cage traps makes this somewhat amusing, but winds up with multiple badgers I can't really tame or do much with.  (Although releasing a badger inside your fort and letting a civilian kick it to unconsciousness lets you carry the badger from cage to cage without a fuss.)

If they were bothering a pasture creature, the pasture creatures just seem to stand there and take it for some odd reason.  Badgers will run up to the yak, then run away, run up again, run away, run up, get enraged, attack the yak, and the yak won't really fight back, and eventually pass out from the pain.

If nothing else, making dwarves "respect" badgers by not ignoring their presence until they fly into a rage would potentially help this a little. 

Quote
(Also, the giant badger is 300+ kg, and it's 20 times the size of a normal badger... that's still much smaller than giant tigers, which are 1,900 now that "giant" now actually means "more than twice the size of a normal creature".  However, with these animals, it seems like attrition is more important than actual combat competency.  Four dogs beat a giant tiger.)
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Badgers are large weasels, along with wolverines, and they are like wolves when they do have to fight. They can and will take down larger predators such as bears and lions by working together, so why couldn't a group of the giant versions do the same?

These weren't the giant versions - these were 15 kg animals taking down and killing a 5,000 kg animal.  I managed to get 6 weasels to kill an elephant... and they don't even have one sacrificial weasel that takes one for the team, either, the elephant pretty much just immediately curls up into a ball and cries, even though the badgers can't even pierce the skin most of the time.

This isn't like wolves taking on a bear - wolves can genuinely threaten a bear, even though the bear is stronger and has a clear advantage.  This is like flies killing a frog by suckering it to death.  I literally had to run the arena for about an hour for the elephant to gradually bleed to death because the overwhelming majority of its wounds didn't even draw blood.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Kogut

  • Bay Watcher
  • Next account: Bulwersator
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #158 on: April 03, 2011, 11:53:43 am »

So it is going into bug territory. Mantis?
Logged
The worst bug - 34.11 poll
Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod
Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.

thvaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #159 on: April 03, 2011, 02:24:12 pm »

I think it is more a question of balance than bug fixing.
Logged

NW_Kohaku

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:SCIENCE_FOR_FUN: REQUIRED]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #160 on: April 03, 2011, 04:04:22 pm »

I think it is more a question of balance than bug fixing.

I guess it would depend upon your definition of "bug", but yes, there's something going on that is very unbalanced, and creating very unusual results.

From what I see of how the death by nibbling works, the elephant very quickly starts to slow down due to "extreme pain", and then becomes exhausted very fast, and slips into a coma it never wakes up from. 

"Assuming Control" confirms this - I get about 12 turns, manage to get in one hit before the pain causes my elephant to faint, and then I never get a turn again.  It seems like pain from a hundred nibbles is the killer, here.  For some reason, lying there unconscious leaves my elephant exhausted - possibly because energy/stamina is used up in combat, even while unconscious. 

Also, my combat reports as the elephant was filled up with messages that I would continually "break the grip of badger 8's tooth on Your Head" somehow, rather than releasing grip messages...

My elephant keeps waking up, but immediately passing out again before I can get another turn, but each time it says "You regained consciousness" followed by a whole bunch of "the badger nibbles your front left foot, tearing the skin" and then a "You passed out from exhaustion" message.



Trying again to pay more attention to my elephant's status just before he faints, I actually manage to knock a badger over, and take the chance to gore it in the skull for a quick kill. (Eat it, badgers!) 

After about 6 rounds (one round after killing the badger), I'm not tired at all, but am bleeding and in flashing EXTREME PAIN.  The very next round, I think I'm about to knock over a badger and maybe take a few of them down with me, but I suddenly go unconscious.  I actually get another turn, but it's pointless, as by then the eyes are nibbled into ineffectiveness (cyan, not red from damage, they can't even gnaw my eyeballs out...) and after getting one attack where I can't even see the results, I'm unconscious again, and waiting for another report of how I'm dying.
Logged
Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare

Kogut

  • Bay Watcher
  • Next account: Bulwersator
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #161 on: April 03, 2011, 04:08:21 pm »

So you can reproduce it - and I think it can be called "design bug". Mantis?
Logged
The worst bug - 34.11 poll
Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod
Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.

Footkerchief

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Juffo-Wup is strong in this place.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #162 on: April 03, 2011, 04:17:55 pm »

I suggest not making a report until you've identified specific issues, and also looking through these existing combat bugs.
Logged

Kogut

  • Bay Watcher
  • Next account: Bulwersator
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #163 on: April 03, 2011, 04:21:14 pm »

I suggest not making a report until you've identified specific issues, and also looking through these existing combat bugs.

#33? Nice.
Logged
The worst bug - 34.11 poll
Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod
Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.

thvaz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.31.25 Released
« Reply #164 on: April 03, 2011, 06:15:59 pm »

The point is that combat/wound system in DF works well in some situations and awful in others - it is at its very best against armed humanoid opponents, and at its worst against beasts or non-living opponents. It is more a question of fine-tuning than bug fixing, IMO.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 27