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Author Topic: War On Terror Stuff  (Read 3490 times)

Urist is dead tome

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War On Terror Stuff
« on: April 04, 2011, 03:49:32 pm »

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/04/khalid-sheikh-mohammad-military-commission-trial/

Should the trail be held in the US> Specifically in a civilian court?
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2011, 03:52:51 pm »

I personally do not believe civilian courts have laws enough for dealing with mass murder on this scale.  IMO there is aline crossed from being a criminal act to an act of war.  Military tribunal is perfectly fine, and also.....about damn time!
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RedKing

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 04:00:55 pm »

Can an act of war be declared by a non-state actor? War is legally recognized as occurring between states. And yes, civilian courts can work. They convicted and executed Timothy McVeigh, they convicted and imprisoned the guys behind the first WTC bombing in 1993.
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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 04:03:35 pm »

Can an act of war be declared by a non-state actor? War is legally recognized as occurring between states. And yes, civilian courts can work. They convicted and executed Timothy McVeigh, they convicted and imprisoned the guys behind the first WTC bombing in 1993.


Except this was on much more massive a scale than the WTCB.

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.
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Nadaka

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 04:08:43 pm »

Can an act of war be declared by a non-state actor? War is legally recognized as occurring between states. And yes, civilian courts can work. They convicted and executed Timothy McVeigh, they convicted and imprisoned the guys behind the first WTC bombing in 1993.


Except this was on much more massive a scale than the WTCB.

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.

Scale doesn't matter. The only problem would be finding an impartial jury.
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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 04:09:47 pm »

Can an act of war be declared by a non-state actor? War is legally recognized as occurring between states. And yes, civilian courts can work. They convicted and executed Timothy McVeigh, they convicted and imprisoned the guys behind the first WTC bombing in 1993.


Except this was on much more massive a scale than the WTCB.

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.

Scale doesn't matter. The only problem would be finding an impartial jury.

An impartial jury doesn't exist in this case.
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Aqizzar

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2011, 04:11:26 pm »

Hmm...  So after all these guys have spent years languishing in legally-deplored imprisonment with no charge, the constant objects of a legal shell-game with their government-appointed lawyers, the military finally figured out how they're actually going to hold a trial.  I wonder if this will be another "no, you can't see the evidence being held against you, because we said so and if you see it then it might be statutorily invalidated".

Bear in mind that a civilian court in New York City was perfectly able to put a much less significant terrorist away for life on a single conviction.  I guess the military decided a 1-for-1 return wasn't good enough odds.
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RedKing

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2011, 04:12:32 pm »

Can an act of war be declared by a non-state actor? War is legally recognized as occurring between states. And yes, civilian courts can work. They convicted and executed Timothy McVeigh, they convicted and imprisoned the guys behind the first WTC bombing in 1993.


Except this was on much more massive a scale than the WTCB.

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.

Except when they're not. For all their anti-American rhetoric after the fact, the Taliban were unconcerned with the US prior to 9/11. They were an Afghan movement, dedicated to establishing law and order under strict Sharia law in Afghanistan. The first part was laudable (especially considering what a giant clusterf**k the place had been in the early '90s when the warlords were going at it). The second part was where it got problematic.

Had they given up Osama bin Laden right away, they'd still be in charge, because frankly it wasn't worth our time or effort to dislodge them. They weren't a threat to us.


As to the initial point, scope isn't necessarily relevant. Up until 9/11, we had tried mass murderers and terrorists in civil court, and continue to do so. Despite the elevated damage, I see no fundamental reason that KSM cannot be tried in a civil court. This wasn't something on the scale of Nazi Germany.
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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 04:17:22 pm »

Except when they're not. For all their anti-American rhetoric after the fact, the Taliban were unconcerned with the US prior to 9/11. They were an Afghan movement, dedicated to establishing law and order under strict Sharia law in Afghanistan. The first part was laudable (especially considering what a giant clusterf**k the place had been in the early '90s when the warlords were going at it). The second part was where it got problematic.

Had they given up Osama bin Laden right away, they'd still be in charge, because frankly it wasn't worth our time or effort to dislodge them. They weren't a threat to us.


As to the initial point, scope isn't necessarily relevant. Up until 9/11, we had tried mass murderers and terrorists in civil court, and continue to do so. Despite the elevated damage, I see no fundamental reason that KSM cannot be tried in a civil court. This wasn't something on the scale of Nazi Germany.

How many of those terrorists and mass murderers flew planes into the country's biggest city?
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Phmcw

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 04:21:11 pm »

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.
Yup, as an American tool against the USSR in Afganistan. Funny how time flow he?
There is an international court of justice for dealing with mass murder and crime against humanity, and civilian court to judge criminals and terrorists.
Military justice is propaganda for "let's fuck these fuckers", with military judge, advocate and attorney. And will be another blatant abuse of human right, but given the shit that will be stirred if anyone with legal knowledge is involved in the trial of anyone coming from Guantanamo, I totally expect it to happen. At great cost for... pretty much everything actually.

Let's see, it will set up a bad precedent for the right to a fair trials in the US, will tarnish American Image, will trigger even more hate toward America and will give good argument for everyone everywhere to do the same. Good job.
I think Ben Laden has entered the cheat code : myenemyareincompetent. There no explanation for the level of incompetence displayed by the American government in the fight toward him. Oh he probably used noonecanfindme too.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 04:49:11 pm by Phmcw »
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 04:25:59 pm »

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.
Yup, as an American tool against the USSR in Afganistan. Funny how time flow he?
There is an international court of justice for dealing with mass murder and crime against humanity, and civilian court to judge criminals and terrorists.
Military justice is propaganda for "let's fuck these fuckers", with military judge, advocate and attorney. And will be another blatant abuse of human right, but given the shit that will be stirred if anyone with legal knowledge is involved in the trial of anyone coming from Guantanamo, I totally expect it to happen. At great cost for... pretty much everything actually.

Let's see, it will set up a bad precedent for the right to a fair trials in the US, will tarnish American Image, will trigger even more hate toward America and will give good argument for everyone everywhere to do the same. Good job.
I think Ben Laden has entered the cheat code : myenemyarestupid. There no explanation for the level of stupidity displayed by the American government in the fight toward him. Oh he probably used noonecanfindme too.

This whole thing just stinks of troll...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 04:39:05 pm by Urist is dead tome »
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Aqizzar

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 04:26:21 pm »

How many of those terrorists and mass murderers flew planes into the country's biggest city?

Timothy McVeigh blew an office building to the ground, the biggest terrorist attack in America before 9/11.  He was caught by police, tried in civilian court, shortly executed, and scattered to the wind.

Of coruse, McVeigh was an American citizen.  The point being, the scale and type of crime does not necessitate that a criminal be moved completely out of the normal judicial process, because a civilian court somehow "can't handle" him.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 04:30:04 pm by Aqizzar »
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Nadaka

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 04:26:36 pm »


How many of those terrorists and mass murderers flew planes into the country's biggest city?

Scale does not matter. We have no law that says that some crimes are so big that they can not be handled by a civilian court. We are talking about first degree homicide, kidnapping, destruction of public property, destruction of private property, violating various air safety laws, conspiracy to commit various crimes, aiding and abetting of various crimes and a few that I can't think of.

Ok, it would be kinda annoying if they had to read off 3000+ "guilty of first degree homicide" and "conspiracy to commit homicide" verdicts without a shortcut.

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Phmcw

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2011, 04:45:30 pm »

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.


This whole thing is just stinks of troll...

Why? The foundation of al quaida is well documented, as well as it's funding by the CIA as a tool against USSR.
Or do you think Guantanamo's condition of detention would be accepted by a real court?
America's administration would be in deep trouble should the person in Guantanmo get a fair trial, and that is why they won't.
Oh sure there is criminal, terrorists, rapist and killer among them, but there are innocents as well.
So yes, all that mess result from an accumulation of very poor decisions.
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: War On Terror Stuff
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2011, 04:47:31 pm »

At the time I would say that this could be an act of war, Taliban and Al-Qaida, both are kinda joined at the hip.


This whole thing is just stinks of troll...

Why? The foundation of al quaida is well documented, as well as it's funding by the CIA as a tool against USSR.
Or do you think Guantanamo's condition of detention would be accepted by a real court?
America's administration would be in deep trouble should the person in Guantanmo get a fair trial, and that is why they won't.
Oh sure there is criminal, terrorists, rapist and killer among them, but there are innocents as well.
So yes, all that mess result from an accumulation of very poor decisions.

I don't know why. I was referring to the part where you said that Americans were stupid. How that isn't trolling I don't know.
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