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[antymattar]

The idea is that alchemists would be like nobles(the ones who com off the edge of the map). There should be some stuff and crap that you can make in an alchemy workshop but the real deal should be that if alchemists get a mood then they would invent a new type of metal or material or booze or whatever that you can build only in your fortress.

[IT 000]

I'd rather not, if it's a booze, dwarves will drink it, presto artifact gone. If it's a randomly generated material, how will the player know if Mysterium is as dull as salmon or as sharp as steel. Likewise as light as a pillow or as heavy as a couch?

While I do not know what Toady has in store. Before 1400's alchemy was essentially a chemist for hire. The lead-to-gold and the elixir of life stories were believed to have been a sales pitch by most historians. I presume he will stick to the chemistry part instead of a miracle worker.

[NW_Kohaku]

Alchemists used to be a noble: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/23a:Alchemist

They were just removed because there's no alchemy for them to do, anyway.

Now, alchemy is just a skill, but it's still a skill with no actual jobs.

If you want alchemists, you first have to invent alchemy.

[antymattar]

I know all of those things. I didn't suggest that the alchemist just make something and then go "Well, that was fun! Lets go carve engravings of cheese!". I suggest that he should make all new recepies for materials/boozes.

[Beznogim]

I suggest alchemist to do these sort of things:
- turning one type of material into another. For example, turning 20 lead bars into 1 gold bar (the amount of bars needed may depend on how skilled alchemist is)
- brewing some potions, that would buff dwarfs, like making warriors more strong and tough or speeding up healing, but long usage of them may result in dwarfs getting addicted to them.
- creating poisons to make dwarven weapons poisonous

[sockless]

I suggest alchemist to do these sort of things:
- turning one type of material into another. For example, turning 20 lead bars into 1 gold bar (the amount of bars needed may depend on how skilled alchemist is)
- brewing some potions, that would buff dwarfs, like making warriors more strong and tough or speeding up healing, but long usage of them may result in dwarfs getting addicted to them.
- creating poisons to make dwarven weapons poisonous

The last two would be good, but the first one is horrible. Poisons are already made though, but they are just simple extracts, I assume that alchemists could make far more potent and far ranging poisons, maybe through some system like The Elder Scrolls has, where you mix the ingredients and the effects are the intersection of the individual effects of the plants. The problem is that poisons need to be implemented properly first, i.e. you can apply them to weapons.

The idea of buff potions is pretty much the same as above, so no more elaboration is needed.

The idea of turning lead into gold is a really bad one, as it is completely non-realistic and gamey. Yes, it is possible, but it hasn't been done yet, the only true alchemy we have done is atomic fusion and fission, which aren't even remotely feasible in DF. We have managed to convert platinum into gold in real life though, but all that required was jamming another proton onto a Pt atom, which is very hard to do in itself, let alone pulling off half a dozen protons. Also, Pt is worth more than Au.

One use of alchemy that is often suggested is that it could be used to create gunpowder, except then there's the whole discussion on whether we should have gunpowder or not.

[harborpirate]

al·che·my/ˈalkəmē/Noun
1. The medieval forerunner of chemistry, based on the supposed transformation of matter, esp. that of base metals into gold.
2. A process by which paradoxical results are achieved or incompatible elements combined with no obvious rational explanation.

Alchemy pretty much implies magic, and it certainly carries the connotation of turning things into gold. It should be, if not completely random, at the very least procedurally generated (probably per worldgen). Alchemy should be one of the things that players get to explore in the later game. As for how the player should be able to exert control in DF mode over what ingredients should be used, I don't have any concrete ideas for that at the moment.

Besides, I don't see the problem with turning things into gold. Its not any more useful than other metals (arguably less), and while I suppose it could increase the wealth of the fortress, that's inconsequential as well played fortresses become ridiculously rich by the third year anyway.

[Jeoshua]

Actually, anyone who has done some research on this topic that has NOT been going to gaming sites and reading DnD source materials would be able to tell you that there are basically 3 types of alchemy:

1- The search for enlightenment.  Couched in the chemistry terms of the day, this branch of alchemy is about finding "the philosopher's stone".  That stone is not physical, but actually symbolizes true enlightenment.

2- The forerunner of chemistry.  This was practiced by the Arabs, and is basically chemistry.  They just didn't understand all the facts quite yet, but it was still very functional.

3- The turning of base metals into gold.  This one was practiced by charlatans who wanted to get money out of gullible Kings, and this money was usually put to the use of pursuing either types 1 or 2 above.

[antymattar]

My point exactly! I am aiming at the forerunner of chemistry. the idea is that they will discover something that your fortress can afterwards mass produce!

[Lord Vetinari]

3- The turning of base metals into gold.  This one was practiced by charlatans who wanted to get money out of gullible Kings, and this money was usually put to the use of pursuing either types 1 or 2 above.

Actually, this is connected with 1. Of course, there were charlatans, but the whole point of turning things into gold wasn't money. Gold doesn't rust natutally (only mercury and aqua regia can corrode it, as far as I remember), so it was a symbol of perfection. Alchemists thought that finding a way to turn other metals into gold would lead them to a way to stop any form of what at the time was called "corruption" in men too, which includes diseases, death, moral decline (yeah, they were somewhat clueless about the distinction between phisical and metaphisical world), etc.

[devek]

The biggest problem with alchemy is that it didn't work. It was based on metaphysics. The concept of "as above, so below" is an ancient "bug" in human thought that has been around forever and still exists today.

The best way I could imagine alchemy in a game, would be to make it a problem for your fort. Con men who would swindle your dwarfs with useless potions and mislead them into not going to the doctor when they are hurt, things like that hehe. This would actually be cool because it would make the justice system useful for something.

[Beznogim]

The biggest problem with alchemy is that it didn't work. It was based on metaphysics.

We have a fantasy game with undead, dragons, etc. - things that don't actually work in real world, too. So I don't see any problem, if alchemists in the game would be actually able to do paradoxical stuff, like turning other metals into gold with no obvious rational explanation.

[devek]

I'm ok with fantasy, that is what the D&D alchemy stuff is good for.

I guess I should have been more clear about how nonworkable real alchemy would be. They wouldn't be turning stuff into gold, they would be blaming sick dwarfs for getting themselves sick because of something they thought about. If they would imagine themselves healthy, they would become healthy lol.

[Supercharazad]

Fun fact: You can turn ANY material into gold.


Basically, the components of hydrogen and helium can make anything. You take your lead, rip apart the quarks and stick them back together in the shape of gold, and hey presto! (of course, you'd need more lead than gold, as gold is heavier)

If you have waste materials, just throw those extra quarks out

[antymattar]

Yes, you can do that but that is not alchemy. That is nucleas physics. The mians invented it arround 1000AD. 

The point here is that the strangemetal that they invent will be some speccial sort of metal. Perhaps more valuable or perhaps stronger than others. Either way, it would be fun. Also, other forts shouldnt be able to make the supermetal/whateverstuff. That way the world would have a limmited ammount of buggermetal spears.