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Author Topic: 16x16 Maps  (Read 4740 times)

Ganondwarf

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16x16 Maps
« on: May 02, 2011, 10:42:13 pm »

Okay, so I've tried twice to play on a 16x16 embark map, and as you might be able to imagine, it's impossible. Last time I tried I got like 1 FPS.
So I'm just wondering, have any of you been able to play a map that big, and what's your hardware? Also, does anyone know if future optimizations to the code will make this more possible, or is the only solution a faster cpu?

Girlinhat

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 11:11:02 pm »

Probably only multi-coring, which isn't happening anytime soon.  After all, the game is only growing bigger with every update.  You're LESS likely to manage a full 16x16.

If you're intent on it, try bottoming out your world, like remove all caverns, bottom layer, and magma, and allow 5 layers.  This prevents a lot of soil and stone which takes up memory.  On the other side, lower the max height, the default is 10 levels above ground, so make it something insignificant like 1-2.  Flat maps have easier pathfinding, so go for flat terrain on worldgen, and pocket worlds fare much better than larger ones.  Fewer civilization will also reduce FPS drag.  Weather and temperature help too (invasions don't matter if you're the only civ).  Sure, it's not impressive, but beggers can't be choosers.

Azated

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 11:22:31 pm »

I remember an thread about this a while ago.

We were debating whether or not NASA supercomputers could run a 16x16 embark.
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Ganondwarf

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 12:01:37 am »

I remember an thread about this a while ago.

We were debating whether or not NASA supercomputers could run a 16x16 embark.

Well, if my two year old laptop can run it at 1 FPS, I'm sure...well actually, yeah, you just might be on to something there. :/
What about IBM's Watson?

I do think that computer hardware will advance faster than the game's memory/cpu footprint...slightly...the funny thing is, I don't even know what I would do with all that space. Which come to think of it, is another question I was going to ask, but maybe I'll save that for another thread.

Girlinhat

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 12:27:44 am »

The thing is, DF will only ever run on one CPU.  Computers are easy to advance by giving them multiple cores.  A dual-core is almost (not quite) twice as strong as a single.  The most amazing computer on the market will be hobbled, because you can have a 16 core rig, but if each core is lame then DF is going to crawl.  In this way, DF is often very different from other games.  Where you might run EVE, Starcraft 2, or, I don't know, some other high-stress game, DF will crawl.  Older computers that might be single-core and a good core, will run DF better.

Thus, in all likelyhood, CPU power will increase, but the single-core capacity probably won't increase as quickly as multi-core will.

MarcAFK

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 01:38:40 am »

besides 16x16 is just too big, i started a few 14/14 embarks and my mind just boggled at the amount of space i had at my disposal, i balked just deciding where to put my initial settlement... also stonesense won't let me screenshot entire embarks over 5x5 so i'm on the fence about if i should make it so big, however i'm planning a human fort inspired by post Norman London , the town sorrounded half by wall, half by river, divided into 4 sectors, each containing it's own meeting area and megaprojects and it's own industries.
A military area containing a tower/fortress with most military related induistries, the meeting area being a theatre in the round.
A port containing a massive ship and most mercantile industries, meeting area being a marketplace.
A royal quarter containing the royal palatial residence, nobles, prison, legal stuff, hammerer, etc meeting area being the law courts.
And finally the main residential part of town containing a huge cathedral as well most primary industries (carpenters, masons, bakery, etc) meeting area of course being within the cathedral itself.
Farms, forests, quarries, mines will be outside the walls, quarries must be open pits for authenticity, no construction underground allowed except for basements, ore/coal  mines and the digging for the docks.
Use of magma not allowed, except i may spawn some with DF hack for mood lighting or various superficial uses. Humans will be modded to allow steel and other industries nessicary for a complete fort, and some items will be removed.
Anyway back on topic, the space needed for the megaprojects is significant, an embark square just for the cathedral or the ship, and each resident will be given a tudor style wood and plaster house with internal space 6x3 and 2 stories (as humans each story will be 2 zlevels which will make the houses look better also) bottom floor containing whichever workshop the resident works at.
For this i should need a big embark area, 16x16 would be nice so i still have space for forests. Also i may mod plants to produce less food so i need more space for farms, shorter growing seasons also wouldn't be remiss.
er yeah good luck with your embark, on my 14x14 i had great fps but ram usage was at 1.8gb which i imagine would probably hit the limit and crash by the time i had started construction.. however i did leave the bottom layer on. i imagine your cpu use for a huge embark should be the same as a smaller embark as long as there isn't lots of extra creatures or flowing water
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

Captain Mayhem

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 02:49:18 am »

The thing is, DF will only ever run on one CPU.  Computers are easy to advance by giving them multiple cores.  A dual-core is almost (not quite) twice as strong as a single.  The most amazing computer on the market will be hobbled, because you can have a 16 core rig, but if each core is lame then DF is going to crawl.  In this way, DF is often very different from other games.  Where you might run EVE, Starcraft 2, or, I don't know, some other high-stress game, DF will crawl.  Older computers that might be single-core and a good core, will run DF better.

Thus, in all likelyhood, CPU power will increase, but the single-core capacity probably won't increase as quickly as multi-core will.
I remember reading something about this a few years back. CPU power will not increase much at all until we research some groundbreaking stuff, something about physical limitations makes it incredibly hard to make processors stronger than 3GHz, I believe. Which is why CPU power barely has increased at all lately, and also why newer processors only come with multiple cores instead of more power. So I hope DF will be able to support multiple cores soon, otherwise the game will outdate all our computers eventually.

But don't trust me on this, my memory might be failing. I can't even provide any sources :(
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MarcAFK

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 03:10:06 am »

When pentium 4's reached 3.8 ghz there was significant leakage of power and overheating which prevented it from reaching the 10GHZ limit engineers originally thought it would be capable of. After that everything started having multiple cores. Also the next generation after P4 of single core processors had significant archetecture changes that improved energy efficiency and processing power even with lower clock speeds.
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

Number7

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2011, 03:29:10 am »

a quantum computer takes advantage of a shrodingers cat situation, where things can be in multiple states at once and all that. I'll skip the lengthy explanation, but let me say, if and when we get quantum computing, one of those will be powerful enough to break military encryption in a heartbeat, a feat that cant be accomplished by every computer in the world put together (well it can, just takes a lifetime or two :D )

so, then you'll get your 108x108 embarks with no lag :)
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imperium3

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2011, 03:33:18 am »

Modern processors are still faster than old ones though, even if the clock speeds don't look like it. Remember that there's more to a CPU than the number of GHz it has. As I understand it, that indicates how fast it does one cycle - more advanced architecture allows an i3 for example to do more in that cycle than an old Pentium would. So clock speeds can be misleading.
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MarcAFK

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2011, 03:34:23 am »

Quantum computer cancels run dwarf fortress: schrodingers cat adopts heisenberg
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

Number7

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2011, 07:50:42 am »

Quantum computer cancels run dwarf fortress: schrodingers cat adopts heisenberg

i lol'd


EDIT: also, GLaDOS from portal actually did the shrodingers cat test, dozens of times

The bad news is reality doesnt exist, the good news is they now have a cat graveyard

Very dwarfy
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urick

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2011, 07:54:03 am »

DF, It's all MHz and RAM.
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Quietust

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2011, 08:03:49 am »

Modern processors are still faster than old ones though, even if the clock speeds don't look like it. Remember that there's more to a CPU than the number of GHz it has. As I understand it, that indicates how fast it does one cycle - more advanced architecture allows an i3 for example to do more in that cycle than an old Pentium would. So clock speeds can be misleading.

This was especially true of the Netburst microarchitecture used by the Pentium 4 (a 1.4GHz P4 was roughly as powerful as a 1GHz P3) and the Core microarchitecture went in the exact opposite direction (where a 2GHz Core 2 Duo could outpower a dual core 3GHz Pentium 4, otherwise known as a Pentium D).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 08:05:40 am by Quietust »
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Necro910

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Re: 16x16 Maps
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2011, 09:55:24 am »

Quantum computer cancels run dwarf fortress: schrodingers cat adopts heisenberg

i lol'd


EDIT: also, GLaDOS from portal actually did the shrodingers cat test, dozens of times

The bad news is reality doesnt exist, the good news is they now have a cat graveyard

Very dwarfy
Did you get that from my thread, or is it a coincidence?
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