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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 675426 times)

MASTER_PROGRAMMER

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2910 on: November 17, 2011, 11:23:29 am »

ummm....am i the only one who's curious if adventurers can be bitten and turned into Vampires/werefill-in-the-blanks?

or....was that already talked about before, and i'm just being oblivious like i always am? :(

I'm pretty sure adventurers can turn into vampires if they drink the blood of a vampire they kill.  And getting mauled by a werebeast and turning into one seems like it can happen, you just need to survive the mauling.  I don't remember if there is a quote from Toady, but Footkerchief can probably find it if it exists.

Sweeto. :3

Thanks for the answer. ^^
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2911 on: November 17, 2011, 03:06:55 pm »

ummm....am i the only one who's curious if adventurers can be bitten and turned into Vampires/werefill-in-the-blanks?

or....was that already talked about before, and i'm just being oblivious like i always am? :(

I'm pretty sure adventurers can turn into vampires if they drink the blood of a vampire they kill.  And getting mauled by a werebeast and turning into one seems like it can happen, you just need to survive the mauling.  I don't remember if there is a quote from Toady, but Footkerchief can probably find it if it exists.

Sweeto. :3

Thanks for the answer. ^^

No, you can't be a vampire and a lycanthrope. At most, you could be a lycanthrope or vampire necromancer.

I'm like 85 percent sure, this is what Toady said on the matter.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2912 on: November 17, 2011, 03:30:24 pm »

Theoretically, it is possible to have "werepires", at least last we heard (though I'm pretty sure MASTER_PROGRAMMER meant it as vampire or werebeast rather that vampire and werebeast). It should be quite rare in worldgen, but reasonably attainable for an adventurer.

Quote from: Gamerlord
It is possible for adventurers to become necromancers/werebeasts/vampires, right? Or at least recruit a necromancer to join you?

At the moment it is possible as an adventurer to become a werebeast (and probably a vampire).  Haven't decided if we will fit in necromancers.  The necromancers you meet will all be hostile at this point.

Quote
Quote from: Serrational
Will were-creatures be possibly undead?
Quote from: Chronas
Can undead get syndromes/curses?

The vamps can't be vamped and the weres can't be wered, but everything else looks technically legal now.  I'm not sure what situations can actually arise though.  Weres go nuts, so they don't have opportunities to become undead really.  I think a vamp could get wered during a were attack though, or if the vamp decides to become a monster slayer in world gen and screws up.  In world gen, I think that would make the vampire go nuts, in which case it would attack on the full moons, as a werebeast that also has the vampire properties I suppose.  And then it could attack your fortress.

However, this is because the werecurse is very lax about passing on right now.  It just needs a non-were who can learn.  If it also checked living status or something, it wouldn't be catching for vamps.  Right now an intelligent rock man could get wered.  Dunno what I want, but that last is a little or a lot weird.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2913 on: November 17, 2011, 03:31:08 pm »

^^^ beaten and with a newer quote!

This is the latest I could find on it:
Quote from: piecewise
Will the game have certain curses take precedent over others? Ie, if I get bitten by a vampire and then by a were-moose, will I transform into a blood sucking moose man every full moon? If I raid a tomb is it possible that I'll find an undead necromancer vampire were-axolotl?

It doesn't allow some combinations.  Right now it allows for a vampire werebeast, which is strange, and may or may not be allowed.  I don't think any of the werebeasts are strictly aquatic, but if I screwed that up I'm sure we'll see it when it happens.
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Ganthan

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2914 on: November 17, 2011, 10:01:56 pm »

Will it ever be possible for your fortress to fight for independence from your home civilization?  Will the king ever start taxing you, claiming some of your soldiers or issuing some new kind of mandates of his own like "You need to export at least 30 battle axes, 20 mining picks and 500 prepared meals by next year," and thus start getting rebel sentiment in your fortress?  It would be neat to have a Colonization style revolutionary war against other steel clad dwarves, although unless they were trap immune or something it would still be too easy to win.
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Areyar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2915 on: November 18, 2011, 05:43:58 am »

Honestly I would like someone expert in the laws of physics to determine how effective it would be to hit someone with a pole like object that has almost no mass but with near supernaturally strong durability and hardness (with absolutely NO flexibility).
It would be in practice probably a little more than directly punching him.
Probably a little less because of the extremely low inertia of the rod.
...like hitting someone with a long paper tube, filled with foam for 'sturdity'.
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jellsprout

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2916 on: November 18, 2011, 06:41:26 am »

The adamantine head has almost no momentum. With adamantine knuckles this wouldn't matter too much, because you still have the mass of your entire arm behind it, but there is nothing behind the head. The rod is orthogonal to the momentum, so little to no energy from your body can be transferred through the impact. The head will probably just bounce back and the target will feel hardly anything.
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2917 on: November 18, 2011, 07:22:39 am »

The adamantine head has almost no momentum. With adamantine knuckles this wouldn't matter too much, because you still have the mass of your entire arm behind it, but there is nothing behind the head. The rod is orthogonal to the momentum, so little to no energy from your body can be transferred through the impact. The head will probably just bounce back and the target will feel hardly anything.

Yep. Leverage is great, but you don't really get the opportunity for follow-through like you would on a stab/punch.

The head being super-hard and super-durable... really doesn't matter. That just means it might scratch or cut you better, but we're talking about a blunt object here. Getting hit with a hollowed-out, super-light round diamond wouldn't hurt much even if it's a hell of a lot harder than your flesh.

Of course, DF also doesn't properly slow down a weapon due to its weight. Silver hammers should be kind of terrible, because of the fact that having a heavier-than-normal hammer isn't quite an advantage; you swing more slowly and more clumsily with less maneuverability, therefore there's less energy behind the blow. Past a certain point, there's simply no advantage to adding more weight, or else iron hammers would just be made with more iron to begin with.
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Dsarker

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2918 on: November 18, 2011, 07:45:35 am »

But because it is rigid, the force is transferred faster than by a fist.
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King Mir

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2919 on: November 18, 2011, 08:00:05 am »

The adamantine head has almost no momentum. With adamantine knuckles this wouldn't matter too much, because you still have the mass of your entire arm behind it, but there is nothing behind the head. The rod is orthogonal to the momentum, so little to no energy from your body can be transferred through the impact. The head will probably just bounce back and the target will feel hardly anything.
The head won't bounce back, because it's rigid.

You won't get the benefit of a swinging weight at the end, but you can still impart any force that you could with your hands. Depending on the surface area it would be like either a paddle or a rod, made of hollow steal. Armor would make it feel more like a paddle.

G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2920 on: November 18, 2011, 08:32:36 am »

The head won't bounce back, because it's rigid.

You still don't get the benefit of any sort of follow-through because you're relying entirely on the stored momentum at the end of the lever, not any additional momentum from, say, your own body. That momentum/kinetic energy is all you get. This is why very light hammers are a bad idea, but a very light dagger works well.

Quote
You won't get the benefit of a swinging weight at the end, but you can still impart any force that you could with your hands. Depending on the surface area it would be like either a paddle or a rod, made of hollow steal. Armor would make it feel more like a paddle.

This is not true for the reasons stated above. A punch (or stab) carries with it the momentum of your own body, as well as continuously applied force from yourself continuing to push your body forward; you're putting your weight and momentum into it. A "swing" of a sword, mace, hammer, etc. only imparts the momentum imparted to the head of the weapon by the swing.
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Areyar

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2921 on: November 18, 2011, 08:54:57 am »

Just for completeness: What is the ingame density of adamantinum?
(n.b. Iron, copper, zinc, nickel  = about 8-9, lead, silver = about 11, gold, platinum = about 20, aluminum, magnesium, bone = about 2-3, diamond = 3.5, polystyrene = 1)
edit: wiki: ada ~200
alu: 2700 etc
the onlky thing I can find less dense would be balsawood (150). :p

The type of attack is important as well,
slicing, cutting -sharpness (hardness/area), speed
piercing : idem dito, only angle of attack is different (same as a slap vs a poke)
hacking : sharpness, impetus
bashing : impetus, speed+weight /impact area
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 09:21:10 am by Areyar »
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Kogut

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2922 on: November 18, 2011, 09:21:05 am »

It's definitely not intended for all attributes to affect every job.  The idea is that each labor benefits from a subset of attributes.  Did you try testing any others?

According to the wiki, Creativity may or may not be supposed to impact carpentry. The part that doesn't support creativity being linked to carpentry seems to be based on this post by Toady. So a test with a stonecrafter may be better suited to see whether creativity (and as such, any attribute) impacts performance.

"creativity skills: all crafts, trapping, cheesemaking, cook, architecture, organization, lying, comedy" I believe that carpentry is a craft (note that carpentry is not mentioned in linked post, moreover there is a very, very small but noticeable impact for completely unskilled workers)
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2923 on: November 18, 2011, 09:30:28 am »

You still don't get the benefit of any sort of follow-through because you're relying entirely on the stored momentum at the end of the lever, not any additional momentum from, say, your own body. That momentum/kinetic energy is all you get. This is why very light hammers are a bad idea, but a very light dagger works well.

There's nothing wrong with light hammers, if you can swing them fast enough (which in practice means there is plenty wrong with light hammers)

This is not true for the reasons stated above. A punch (or stab) carries with it the momentum of your own body, as well as continuously applied force from yourself continuing to push your body forward; you're putting your weight and momentum into it. A "swing" of a sword, mace, hammer, etc. only imparts the momentum imparted to the head of the weapon by the swing.

f = ma.

The force you can impart to a hammer (or sword) will accelerate it, and increase it's momentum, prior to reaching the maximum practical weapon speed of a humanoid operator. This is determined by your technique and your body strength. If you 'get your back into it' you can speed the head up faster (and to a higher speed, I should think).

Your point sounds as if someone is just standing perfectly still - 'wafting' a weapon, but bodyweight is a key function of getting the weapon up to speed in the first place. Wrist / arm strength will also factor in to the effectiveness of a blow, as you 'follow through'.

Also the dagger 'stab' issue is more related to the pressure (force / area) exerted by the sharp point. A perfect point needs very little pressure to exert a huge force (and therefore cut easily), so with a stiletto (or an ice pick) you might not need as much gusto in a jab as with a kitchen knife. Once you get to the hilt, the dagger has done as much as it can anyway, whether you are stabbing hard or soft (ignoring the possibilty of thrusting your entire arm through your victims torso).
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #2924 on: November 18, 2011, 09:52:11 am »

It's definitely not intended for all attributes to affect every job.  The idea is that each labor benefits from a subset of attributes.  Did you try testing any others?

According to the wiki, Creativity may or may not be supposed to impact carpentry. The part that doesn't support creativity being linked to carpentry seems to be based on this post by Toady. So a test with a stonecrafter may be better suited to see whether creativity (and as such, any attribute) impacts performance.

"creativity skills: all crafts, trapping, cheesemaking, cook, architecture, organization, lying, comedy" I believe that carpentry is a craft (note that carpentry is not mentioned in linked post, moreover there is a very, very small but noticeable impact for completely unskilled workers)

Crafting most likely means these skills.  Woodcrafting != carpentry.
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