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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 516369 times)

Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4290 on: February 10, 2012, 12:39:26 pm »

Are dwarves denser than water?

For that matter does the game take density into account in regards to water and floating?

Nope, buoyancy is not simulated yet.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4291 on: February 10, 2012, 01:07:55 pm »

I will admit that this is probably a good system to simulate it.

It just has to calculate the weight of water per square inch

and the average weight of a creature per square inch.

Dwarves are also likely not bouyant if they are mostly muscle mass.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4292 on: February 10, 2012, 01:40:33 pm »

I will admit that this is probably a good system to simulate it.

It just has to calculate the weight of water per square inch

and the average weight of a creature per square inch.

Dwarves are also likely not bouyant if they are mostly muscle mass.

There are some other complications:
Quote from: DF Talk 8
Rainseeker:   How is the fluid model going to change?
Toady:   We have hopes there. I guess there are two things ... one of them has a couple of sections ... but two things that are important are floating objects and additional fluid types. So for floating objects right now all the material have densities and they also have sizes and whatever other physical properties you might need, so it can tell, you know 'is this object going to float?' in water or magma. There are some issues there but it's not an impossible problem, you kind of worry when people use quantum stockpiles if they take a bunch of logs and drop five thousand of them in the same square and then that square suddenly gets wet is the CPU going to die? Maybe. But it's not like there needs to be a super lot of calculation going on because if it knows the density of the object to begin with ... I don't know if we're going to have to worry about shapes as well, like if an object has a concave shape the density isn't the only variable that's important ... but getting an object to float, especially for water which is so important, is just something that can be known about the object, it could just be a flag on the object so it doesn't have to do any calculation at all except for the actual floatation. As for that it just depends how you want it to work. There's some other trickiness; if your tile is two out of seven water with a seven out of seven below it, so it's actually bone fide water, it's not just a puddle, does the item float in the two out of seven square? Does it float in the seven out of seven square? What if you have a one of seven, what if you have a zero out of seven with a seven out of seven below it? Which square does it sit in is part of the problem of having this quantized space where you have a tile here and then a tile here and then a tile here, you want to decide where your item rests. Then there's the matter of having currents - the water has a direction that it's supposed to be flowing in even if the tiles aren't actually changing - the objects then can move and that's not really a big process or problem or anything, depending on how many objects you're actually monitoring, or how many squares you're monitoring if you want to monitor it by object or tile, there's a lot of different ways you can look at the problem. Just basically it's not a super hard problem, and then it would be really cool to flood a room and have everything either - depending on how heavy it is - just to get pushed along or float up and float out and go wherever you want it to go, I'm sure there'd be a lot of applications that would come out of that, for people that are doing all kinds of strange things.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4293 on: February 10, 2012, 02:19:35 pm »

Plus there is the idea that Bouyancy isn't anti-swimming skill. It is anti-floating skill.

In theory even a Bronze collosus could "Swim" by "Walking on the bottom of the water" (actually the Bronze collosus I wonder if he would be affected at all by the water)
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Kriby

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4294 on: February 10, 2012, 04:46:16 pm »

Plus there is the idea that Bouyancy isn't anti-swimming skill. It is anti-floating skill.

In theory even a Bronze collosus could "Swim" by "Walking on the bottom of the water" (actually the Bronze collosus I wonder if he would be affected at all by the water)

Not sure I follow. If you're denser than water you use Swimming to swim up, if you're lighter than water you use Swimming to go down. What's this Bouyancy skill?

Also I figure a bronze colossus would literally walk on the bottom of the water, he doesnt need to breathe afaik so whatever.

Edit: Can't this be done simply by calculating average density at all times? If an item is concave it is partly "made up of" air which lowers its density. Whether or not that empty pocket of air will be replaced with water seems like a matter of chance entirely. A dwarf wearing nothing has a lower density than a dwarf wearing steel plate, floats/sinks accordingly. Has the added benefit of you being able to dress your dwarves in corkwood "life-savers" that reduce their average density and make them float.

There's no clear cut answer for which tile an item should occupy..  but assuming a flooded fort should move items inside it the items would have to stay in a tile with water and only float up to the above tile if it has at least 1/7 water, wouldn't they?

Considering most rooms (I assume) end up being 1 tile in height, a gap in the roof would "catch" items otherwise making them fall perpetually, right? 7/7, floats up to 0/7, nothing there, falls down, floats up, falls down.. whereas if the tile is 1/7 it would be "floating" in that tile for the duration.

I suppose in this case a dwarf who is "floating" in a 7/7 tile with air above it would need special treatment not to drown.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 05:11:51 pm by Kriby »
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orius

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4295 on: February 10, 2012, 06:42:53 pm »

had Toady just made RAW entries for the described creatures, it would have taken no time at all.  What ended up happening though is that he wanted to "do [each creature] justice" because people had paid for them. 

At least that shows some real dedication to your playerbase.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4296 on: February 10, 2012, 06:44:30 pm »

It is simple...

Swiming isn't just the ability to swim up and down but move forward as well.

It is the skill that determines how well you move through the water.

In theory even the Bronze collosus would use swimming ability to walk along the bottom of the water more effectively. Even though he would be unable to rise in the water.

In the future I am looking forward to "Flying" skill, "Swimming" skill for swimmers, and "Running" skill.
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MaskedMiner

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4297 on: February 10, 2012, 11:19:03 pm »

I hope "Couple more issues down" mean something like 4 or 5 and that 100 new ones won't suddenly appear by tomorrow...

Does Toady release updates on same day hes ready or day after that? Its been so long that I don't remember anymore.
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bombzero

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4298 on: February 10, 2012, 11:27:58 pm »

hmm well if i remember back from the first few times i played DF, (i was too little to fully grasp the games complexity then) it seems that we just get a HERES YOUR SURPRISE UPDATE, after a few days of devlogs suggesting hes finishing up bugfixing.
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MasterMorality

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4299 on: February 11, 2012, 05:14:32 am »

I think Toady is going to have to take an entire day just to write up all the changes and content in this one update to post.
Can anybody even remember all the content in it? It's gargantuan!
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MrWiggles

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4300 on: February 11, 2012, 07:56:25 am »

I think Toady is going to have to take an entire day just to write up all the changes and content in this one update to post.
Can anybody even remember all the content in it? It's gargantuan!
Assuming that Toady isn't making the change log as he goes.

Much like this dedicated fan as done: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1u8jibE1TV7BAwAI2b4TzRkWFlBboLiXMrVBhYmDYPhI&pli=1
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4301 on: February 11, 2012, 11:24:38 am »

I think Toady is going to have to take an entire day just to write up all the changes and content in this one update to post.
Can anybody even remember all the content in it? It's gargantuan!

Yeah, he probably just makes a note of something each time he changes something, and at the end he cleans it up a bit and sticks it in the releasenotes.txt.

Also after 31.01 the update was so big he didn't post the changes on the devlog OR the release notes file. Best stick to that google doc.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 11:26:44 am by Untelligent »
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Kriby

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4302 on: February 11, 2012, 01:01:31 pm »

Once human civs become playable how will you avoid pissing off the elves insanely building a massive wooden town? Where will you get materials for keeps? If humans will dig down for rocks, why not for metals? Are there racial drawbacks planned that will keep humans from digging deep underground?
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4303 on: February 11, 2012, 01:05:47 pm »

Once human civs become playable how will you avoid pissing off the elves insanely building a massive wooden town? Where will you get materials for keeps? If humans will dig down for rocks, why not for metals? Are there racial drawbacks planned that will keep humans from digging deep underground?

Well there is technology, society, and in some ways yeah race too.

Though I assume it will be because not only are humans less adept at digging but they prefer homes above ground.
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SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #4304 on: February 11, 2012, 01:07:58 pm »

I think Toady is going to have to take an entire day just to write up all the changes and content in this one update to post.
Can anybody even remember all the content in it? It's gargantuan!
Assuming that Toady isn't making the change log as he goes.

Much like this dedicated fan as done: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1u8jibE1TV7BAwAI2b4TzRkWFlBboLiXMrVBhYmDYPhI&pli=1

For DF2010, which contained many more fundamental and game-changing features than this release, Toady made a very bare bones list. I still linked people to the google doc version if they had questions about the feature list.

So, I don't mean to play backseat coder, and I know I'm just saying this because I'm impatient, but can't Toady prioritize bugs as "gamebreaking" and "not gamebreaking"? Some of the bugs we're being told are fixed seem to be the very definition of inconsequential, something which has no affect on the gameplay and could be fixed in any number of patches after
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