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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 675316 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #540 on: May 27, 2011, 03:40:07 pm »

I personally have to wonder what the ramifications and implications are of goblins not eating. What's to stop them from severe population explosion?

Nothing really... Though currently what stops goblins from population exploding is constant infighting.

The fact that in Goblin society anyone can not only murder anyone but it is also perfectly acceptible to do so, tends to keep populations low.

Anyhow so there we go. "Not being human" is a curse in it of itself of appropriate harshness to any benefit it may give you.

So Toady with gods giving curses, does this mean that more active or at least flavorful gods are not so far away?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 03:42:00 pm by Neonivek »
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #541 on: May 27, 2011, 07:21:23 pm »

I personally have to wonder what the ramifications and implications are of goblins not eating. What's to stop them from severe population explosion?

Nothing really... Though currently what stops goblins from population exploding is constant infighting.

But the population obviously does rise to some degree; what's the limiting factor? What factors increase or decrease such that the population grows to a certain equilibrium and then stops?
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #542 on: May 27, 2011, 07:30:56 pm »

I personally have to wonder what the ramifications and implications are of goblins not eating. What's to stop them from severe population explosion?

Nothing really... Though currently what stops goblins from population exploding is constant infighting.

But the population obviously does rise to some degree; what's the limiting factor? What factors increase or decrease such that the population grows to a certain equilibrium and then stops?

More infighting?

Well currently it is because of the magical population limit
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Cthulhu

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #543 on: May 27, 2011, 08:47:20 pm »

Maybe there's a point where they just can't stand each other's shit and infighting turns into all out civil war.  Maybe at a certain threshold where they break off and form new cities.

Maybe their constant war with Dorfs and Humans keeps the population down.
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nenjin

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #544 on: May 27, 2011, 09:03:37 pm »

Maybe their breeding coefficient is so low that anything basically keeps them in check.
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monk12

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #545 on: May 27, 2011, 09:33:11 pm »

Re: Latest devlog

Lunar phases should be exciting- the whole "top down" focus on many roguelikes and strategy games tends to make one forget about the cosmos. Throw in the fact that shooters are often indoors, and I realize that the sky is an underrepresented and underexplored environment from a gameplay perspective.

Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #546 on: May 27, 2011, 10:05:22 pm »

Maybe their breeding coefficient is so low that anything basically keeps them in check.

Actually Elves have a lower breeding coefficiant and breed like crazy relative to the goblins.

Their infighting is so horrible that usually by the time they have forces capable of doing anything... even the Dwarves have larger (and much stronger) armies.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #547 on: May 27, 2011, 11:35:45 pm »

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Quote from: stolide
If someone with a secret dies, and then they are raised, do they still know the secret? For example, if one necromancer kills another, and decides to raise his fallen enemy, does the newly undead necromancer maintain his ability to raise more undead?
Quote from: James.Denholm
To expand on this a little, what happens to the soul on re-animation?

Because I just love runnin' the questionmobile, to expand on that further: Will there be methods of necromancy or other magic that will/will not bring back the soul? What about partially bringing back the soul, both through a "copy" (for example, zombie with skills but not memories, assuming skills are in the soul) and through weakly linking to the actual soul (as above, but upon seeing his daughter it all comes flooding back to him and he turns his rusty sword on his master instead of participating in the village sacking, saving everyone and leading to a fairly awkward family reunion on account of his badly rotted face). PowerGoal 177 was a wife being dumped in the sewers and then rising to seek revenge on her murdering husband - is that still the idea? Will it be possible for necromancers to mix and match souls and bodies?

The corpse won't know the secret if it is raised, but if the necromancer were to be resurrected properly soul-wise, then they would (that would only happen with a mod at this instant).  The main difference between the "animate" and "resurrect" effects is what happens with the soul.  Mummies are fully resurrected, for instance.  We've thought a bit about soul pieces and soul makeup (and if I remember, there was a giant thread/fotf discussion some time ago about different ways of conceptualizing souls), but we haven't messed with that specifically yet, and similarly for other stuff.  It will come in over time.

Quote from: Dr. D
Will all the secrets be big, special things like raising the dead, or will there eventually be less large secrets, such as the secret of making a musical instrument or how to cook something special?

I'm not sure how the knowledge system will end up being extended or if secrets are the way the mundane things are going to go.

Quote from: scriver
Do necromancers/secret-knowers take on acolytes or apprentices and further their knowledge and/or fortress conquering agenda?

Nope.  They are too antisocial to have living friends right now.  I imagine when it starts getting culty we'll have relationships like that.

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Does this mean that, instead of just "Peasant" "Hero" and "Demigod", we might be able to start out selecting "Priest" or "Fortuneteller" or whatever job produces this information?  Or is this going to be a set of skills that anyone can train?

Hard to say.  We were leaning toward starting scenarios, running through a bit of history that it sort of shoehorns into the world, perhaps, but we'll see how limiting that feels.

Quote from: Heph
How will the monument will be placed? Will there be stuff like valleys filled with Monuments or fields with grave-mounts respective whatever exists.

Also will there be political stuff around the "grave-sites" like starting a war with someone because they "disturbed the dead" from the builders pov.

There are monument sites, then it puts monuments in them, occasionally branching out to a new site.  The overall boundaries of the site grows the more monuments it gets.  There isn't any political stuff yet, but it's certainly reasonable.

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What part of the next update are you most excited about?

I don't have a particular thing.  I'm glad that it's all moving along and that there are various new places to flesh out over time.

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Can a severed 'buddy part' be reanimated if its original owner is still alive?

Of course!

Quote
Quote from: Lordinquisitor
After reading the devlog update about raiding tombs i began to wonder whether tombs can be raided during worldgen, by Bandits for example. I think it would be pretty neat to find a empty tomb from time to time, it`s riches stored in the camp of some Bandits. I also think that finding and returning part of the treasures of a dead king might be a interesting quest.
Quote from: Deimos56
Expanding on this... in an odd sort of way I guess, will dead kings, under certain circumstances, rise up to avenge their tombs being looted? Say, if the king happened to simultaneously manage to be a major priest of the local God of Death, or otherwise be rendered capable of rising up to avenge himself (faithful necromancer subjects, certain burial methods, etc)?

We didn't get to it, but we were thinking of doing world gen tomb raids to get some bad things active and to spread items around.  We might not get there though.  As for kings rising up, it is all too common now, he he he.

Quote from: Khym Chanur
1. How exactly does "bad luck" work?  Does it bias the RNG towards numbers that are bad for the victim?

2. Will modders be able to attach their own curses/interactions to evil biomes, or will evil biomes be hardcoded to only use the "re-animate" interaction?

1. In the effect I was using, it zeroes all the skill rolls intermittently (using a skill adjust syndrome).  Due to the way syndromes are timed in combination with dwarf mode, time is cut into segments about 7 walking steps long, and your luck is bad for 20% of those time segments.  So if you are attacked during one of your unfortunate times, it will go as badly as it can possibly go.  There are many random rolls that aren't skill dependent, and I haven't hunted any of those down, but the way it works affects combat and the quality of crafts, sneaking, etc., so it is enough to work.  There are all sorts of ways it could be changed, but this was a simple way to set it up.

2. You can attach your own, but world gen in particular can't predict how every effect works, so some of that won't work right -- if you made the gods curse a guy with something that stops his breathing, it won't kill him until he shows up in play for example.  That kind of thing just needs to be sorted out, but it is a broad problem which I'm not going to address now.  During play where it has all the variables and time at its disposal, it should work.  So an evil region for example could be modded to hit dwarves up with blisters and retching fits periodically.  Things like this will be in vanilla if we get to it.

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Will an adventurer (in the coming release) be able to see (cage/weapon) traps before setting them off? Will the traps be visible after they have been set off (by the adventurer or otherwise)? Will Observer or any other current skill have any effect on trap detection? Are there plans to handle that with a new skill in a later release instead? I assume some sort of trap disarming skill is intended for a (far?) future release.

Traps that you spot will be visible, and it announces them.  They are always visible if you can see their tile when they are set off.  The observer skill is used for now, though I imagine the mechanic skill would be as relevant, perhaps.  I'm not sure if "trap detection" should be its own skill, in the presence of both the observer and trap production skill from dwarf mode.  Trap disarming is similar, but I guess it might be something of its own thing.  I don't know anything about it.  Perhaps the mechanic skill suffices.

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How are mummies' bodies handled? Are they based off another creature (e.g. "dwarf mummy", "human mummy", "slugman mummy") somehow or are they their own thing entirely? And how are the materials/tissues for them handled in either case (bandages? dessication?)?

They are based on the body of the historical figure in question, and should have the accompanying wounds, etc.  We haven't added extra items for them, but we were hoping to add some things along those lines, and address various burial practices at the same time.  Might not have time though.

Quote from: tfaal
I take it that since stealing from graves is encouraged, adventurers will not be as prone to civilization-wide exile for such crimes?

We aren't doing anything like that at this point, but it's just a time issue.  Stealing from graves should ideally be discouraged in various ways, balanced by what people hope to get out of it, so that people will do it anyway.

Quote from: rhesusmacabre
Will the raised dead retain experience (skills) and attributes?
For example, will legendary fighters be more dangerous than others?

Will the raised dead have equipment?
Obviously creatures that die in game 'drop' their gear, but will they try to pick it up if raised? Will they seek out their favourite axe/sword? Will necromancers equip their armies before they lay seige (or are besieged/adventure'd)?

The animation effect doesn't bring the soul around for the ride, but the physical stats are retained.  I haven't done anything with equipment.

Quote from: PlainTextMan
Toady and Three Toe, what are your plans (short and longer term) for counter-forces to the whole undead menace? A sort of natural way to balance things out and prevent any necromancer or zombie virus to become semi-world-ruler easily except in extreme cases. Different levels of necromancy, and consequences to dabbling in the darkness stuffs that are difficult to deal with, even to experienced necromancers. Or magic-energy systems that balance things.

And how about forces of life and good and shite like that? I presume they should also play some significant roles.

Specifically, I'm curious about your short-term/placeholder plans for things like these. Certainly, undead can't be allowed to run unbridled armok?

Aside from what's on the dev page, there aren't any plans aside from adventurers and armies to stand against things that arise.  Whatever other things are reasonable, but we don't have short term plans for them other than what comes up out of necessity.  The undead aren't taking over the world as it stands, but if they do every time eventually, then we'll do something about it.

Quote from: Mantonio
Will Dwarfs become more sophisticated in how they react to danger?

Nothing about that is changing for this time.

Quote from: BishopX
Roguelikes have a long history of allowing Players to encounter previous characters. Will the new undead mechanics include risen adventurers/retired adventurer tombs?

We've had encountering previous characters from the beginning, whether through corpses or the retirement mechanic, and this shouldn't turn out any differently.  We aren't going to have retired adventurer tombs until things like that get built post-world-gen in general, but after that, it should be automatic, since retired adventurers just become regular historical figures, assuming a retired adventurer is considered important enough.  Risen adventurers will be encountered before that, since they are in for this release, if you manage to get yourself raised right when you die or if your body is sitting around in an evil region when somebody else plays there.  It doesn't raise it if you die in an evil region and quit before you get raised until you see the body again, since that falls back in the category of continuing larger regional actions after play has begun, which is starting with Release 5 (though obviously we're only going to achieve subsets at a time there, starting with the important things).

Quote from: Mechanoid
In either Adventurer or Fortress mode, can necromancers re-animate dead on-the-go? What's the expected range of a necromancer's influence to reanimate the dead, is it simply unlimited range, line-of-sight limited, or trigger-based like that story with the figurine?

In fortress mode, will dwarves get thoughts about having to deal with undead creatures they knew in another lifetime?

At this point, they can raise all of the dead within line of sight and a certain number of tiles (10 or 25, depending).  More will happen as we do more things.

The thoughts existed from the old zombie attacks before the original release, and I think I co-opted them for ghosts, and they should work for any raised bodies, though I had to add a specific variable for it, since the body and the soul can be unlinked but both active for the first time (zombie + ghost).

Quote from: LoSboccacc
are there any plan to put major economical events in the world available for browsing in the legend mode (or as engraving and such, for that matter)

It'll happen as more things go in.  There are things like the first time a trade route is used, but it's very bare bones right now so I'm not sure it's exciting enough to spam the history with every edge of those graphs I displayed before until there's something more behind it.

Quote from: Neoskel
Were-critters involve temporary transformations into different creatures, with at least a tail being added to the body in most cases and lost upon turning back. Does this mean that natural metamorphosis will be available? Things like tadpoles gaining legs and losing tails when they change into frogs or mantis nymphs gaining wings as they become adults.

It'll start to lay some of the groundwork for that, but I'm not going to jump into that just yet.  Wounds don't need to be preserved as much, and there isn't anything gradually about it, so it's easier to the the werebeasts.

Quote from: hermes
in Fortress mode how hostile shall non-infected Dwarves behave towards their lycanthropic brethren?

When they are going nuts, I expect it will end with mutual violence.  When they aren't nuts, the dwarves won't know or care at first.  After the first transformation, if the dwarf somehow goes through it without being in a fight, I imagine that will continue.  If the dwarf attacks somebody as a werebeast and then changes back, I think the fight will continue due to the enemy status that comes into play, hopefully avoiding any civil war bug issues.

Quote from: GenericOverusedName
With the addition of more were-animals, how will the aboveground animalmen be handled? We already have capybara men running around... would they be replaced by the were-byras? Or be handled as as separate case?

They are completely different things.  I think people posted some stuff from Root, which is an available theory for animal people.  The werebeasts will mostly be periodic transforming and contagious former people that were cursed, that have some resemblance to the animal in question.

Quote from: Heph
Can weres-somethings breed with each other respecktive theyr former spouses or do they do they do it like the hags etc. and turn someone? Also how fast is the change and when will the infected person realisize that s/he is cursed? Can they control there power/were-form (maybe depending on theyr willpower)? Will they have a chance to get cured?

Right now they are without castes/gender/etc., just to avoid dealing with matching things up for now, so they don't do anything after a permanent switch.  The curse transformation can be permanent or periodic.  I haven't done voluntary transformations at this time, and there aren't any cures, though I'm not against either of those things.  It's easiest to just have them run off in the woods when they are cursed, and I might stick with that for this release.  We were really hoping to keep people integrated with vampires though, so it's not clear if werebeasts will get to see some of that -- the problem is that they'd just go nuts and kill people if you arrive in town on the wrong day, and that would conflict with their past many years of integration.  So it needs some work.

Quote from: Rockphed
Will getting cursed for desecrating a temple bestow immortality on the defiler?  Otherwise, I don't expect to see many of the werebeasts around in adventure mode.  Well, not unless they breed more of themselves somehow.

It is still changing as we change things.  They were immortal, and now they are not.  We'll probably keep the first one around.  Once I get the contagiousness done, the numbers should be helped.

Quote from: monk12
Are/will gods have a preference for certain curses interactions, or be more or less likely to bestow an interaction at all? Are gods going to receive personality traits like people? If so, when?

"If so, when?" is always the hardest question.  I'm for it of course, but I have no timeline.  In order for the werecurses to happen frequently enough, they aren't sphere-linked, and it seems like the sort of thing that should be more personality than sphere based.  The secrets are sphere-linked, but people accept immortality secrets more than they profane temples right now, so the frequency isn't as much of an issue.

Quote
Quote from: EmeraldWind
Assuming the werecreatures are randomly picked from the normal creature raws, are there any creatures that are excluded from being picked for the curse? For instance, megabeasts, inorganic creatures, or civilized creatures.
Quote from: Knight Otu
Are the wereforms taken from the same list as other random creatures, from existing creatures, or both?

It uses the forgotten beast system.  Trying to parse the raws would be too messy I think, although something with variations could be doable though quite a bit more work to get right than what I'm doing now.  If you want to add exotic wereforms in the meantime, the gods will use whatever curses you mod in for them, and I'll probably have some examples sitting there to look at.

Quote from: Neonivek
So Toady with gods giving curses, does this mean that more active or at least flavorful gods are not so far away?

I don't have a timeline for additional god activities.  Things seem to get thrown in on occasion though.
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OneTwentySix

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #548 on: May 28, 2011, 12:45:49 am »

Will there be any sort of Fortress mechanism where a werebeast can infect a dwarf and disappear without the player noticing?  Something like the kidnapping, maybe, where if someone other than the individual affected sees the were, he's detected, but if not, the dwarf is infected without notifying the player? 

Overall, something like that might lead to interesting play, as you might know that someone's been infected, but have no idea who.  If the stealth got more complicated, you might have people getting attacked/killed randomly, with the were hiding until the curse is over afterward, to the point where you might instigate a witch hunt.  "Urist, where were you yesterday night?"
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rex mortis

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #549 on: May 28, 2011, 03:16:41 am »

But if a were curse is of divine (chaos) origin it is the job of Ordo Malleus to track the culprit down? On the other hand, since the were creature (xeno) is not a dwarf it might fall under Ordo Xenos jurisdiction. But then, since one of your people has committed heresy (treason), surely Ordo Hereticus will have to get involved.

Will the player be able to form their own custom organisations in play? Perhaps not in the immediate future but eventually. Or would something like an inquisition have to be defined in entity raws? How would one dynamically assign responsibilities and possibly law exemptions to them? Would it be possible for such an organisation to attempt to seize the power for themselves?

Imagine the possibilities. Any proper dwarf would confess their crimes even before the hired elven interrogator started to torture them. If they could tolerate its presence and not confess, they were obviously heretics anyway. Remember, there is no innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #550 on: May 28, 2011, 04:12:20 am »

oh, if only we had a suggestion forum...


thanks toad, a nice batch of answers

Neoskel

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #551 on: May 28, 2011, 04:22:54 am »

Quote from: Neoskel
Were-critters involve temporary transformations into different creatures, with at least a tail being added to the body in most cases and lost upon turning back. Does this mean that natural metamorphosis will be available? Things like tadpoles gaining legs and losing tails when they change into frogs or mantis nymphs gaining wings as they become adults.

It'll start to lay some of the groundwork for that, but I'm not going to jump into that just yet.  Wounds don't need to be preserved as much, and there isn't anything gradual about it, so it's easier to do the werebeasts.

So does this mean that more drastic complete metamorphosis such as Caterpillar->Chrysalis->Butterfly could be in (or just easier to do later)? Wounds wouldn't really matter since the larva stage is pretty much completely melted down and formed into the adult stage in the pupal stage. Of course this raises the issue of them leaving behind the pupal 'case' upon emerging.

On that note, are there any plans in the future for creatures to shed their skin/carapace and leave it behind as an object? Some depictions of were-critters have them tear off their skin when they transform and it would be interesting to collect dragon skin/scales without having to kill a dragon.


I can see it now, dragon skin farms. get some dragon eggs, hatch them and collect the skins/scales they shed as they grow. Expensive leather AND you get to keep your dragons.  :o
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irdsm

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #552 on: May 28, 2011, 05:18:48 am »

Quote from: Neoskel
Were-critters involve temporary transformations into different creatures, with at least a tail being added to the body in most cases and lost upon turning back. Does this mean that natural metamorphosis will be available? Things like tadpoles gaining legs and losing tails when they change into frogs or mantis nymphs gaining wings as they become adults.

It'll start to lay some of the groundwork for that, but I'm not going to jump into that just yet.  Wounds don't need to be preserved as much, and there isn't anything gradual about it, so it's easier to do the werebeasts.

So does this mean that more drastic complete metamorphosis such as Caterpillar->Chrysalis->Butterfly could be in (or just easier to do later)? Wounds wouldn't really matter since the larva stage is pretty much completely melted down and formed into the adult stage in the pupal stage. Of course this raises the issue of them leaving behind the pupal 'case' upon emerging.

On that note, are there any plans in the future for creatures to shed their skin/carapace and leave it behind as an object? Some depictions of were-critters have them tear off their skin when they transform and it would be interesting to collect dragon skin/scales without having to kill a dragon.


I can see it now, dragon skin farms. get some dragon eggs, hatch them and collect the skins/scales they shed as they grow. Expensive leather AND you get to keep your dragons.  :o

I think that's a good idea, though it's as much a suggestion as it is a question. Periodic shedding with a slight increase in size/healing of wounds would add a lot to creatures, I think.
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magmaholic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #553 on: May 28, 2011, 06:01:06 am »

can we start talking to gods at last?
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James.Denholm

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #554 on: May 28, 2011, 06:11:10 am »

Oh, of course. Resurrection d.n.e animation. I guess you do learn something every day...
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