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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress  (Read 400073 times)

Vattic

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1320 on: July 04, 2011, 01:11:51 am »

Toady we need your help!

We are under assault by a SUPER spammer!

We need the Hammer of Armok to slay so foul a creature!

Ohh gawd... they are everywhere!!!

Cue lousy photoshop attempt:
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1321 on: July 04, 2011, 01:13:07 am »

Egad, you're right. I'm not sure they're all bots, though. That being said, this place really could use a CAPTCHA for new users. Does it even have you confirm via email?
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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1322 on: July 04, 2011, 01:14:58 am »

Sweet mother of marmalade, that's a lot of spam.
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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1323 on: July 04, 2011, 04:08:28 am »

Is that all of it?  That was some enterprising spirit there.  Just "report to moderator" any lingering posts sitting around and I'll take care of it.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1324 on: July 04, 2011, 05:26:31 am »

Double post...  I skipped some that were answered (thanks to Footkerchief) and so on.

Quote from: Cruxador
Will less direct effects of syndromes that are more narrativistic than simulationist be included in this Night Creature stuff? As a specific example, I'm thinking of vampires wearing black a lot, and cloaks often, but this question is more about the design philosophy than about that particular case.

It's a pretty small set of things we're dealing with, so I wouldn't expect anything, but design-wise I think it's weird to have the curse cause that sort of thing strictly by itself.  It should be more related to the circumstances (if the vampire was/is a Count, dressing how they dressed is reasonable, and they might darken it up a bit because they are feeling sinister now that they drink blood or something...  I don't remember Dracula's motivation if it ever got into them).

Quote from: Neoskel
Will vampires be able to have kids after becoming vampires? Would they have to breed with another vampire of the same type? If they can breed with a normal individual would the children be vampires? Or will vampires just be sterile?

I cut out breeding vampires since I didn't want to deal with it for this release, but I know it's a popular thing to have mixed-breed vampire slayers and that sort of thing, so it'll probably happen at some point.

Quote from: Neonivek
Toady right now you really want to take away the ability for anything to really end the world and I can see why. Afterall many of these creatures can destroy the world and no one can do anything about it. Do you think in the future you would allow such "world ending" conditions to exist but give the civilisations, heros, and benevolent creatures the consciousness and means to actually combat it? For example Vampires who do transform with every bite, but the amount of generated heat would cause different levels of vampire clensing within a city

It'll have to be balanced out, whatever it is, or else the world gen has to stop some short period before a known date sensitive calamity is going to happen.  Then I think I mentioned before that heading toward an apocalypse is fine, and non-date sensitive ones are fine as well.  It just has to be fun.  If world gen ends up with too many rejects after doing several hundred years, that would be horrible.  If a post-apocalypse world is playable and not all that common, then that's okay as well.  It should be difficult to kill absolutely everybody without blowing up the world, and worlds with small isolated groups of humans clinging to life are cool, if a bit limited.

Quote from: Gamerlord
It is possible for adventurers to become necromancers/werebeasts/vampires, right? Or at least recruit a necromancer to join you?

At the moment it is possible as an adventurer to become a werebeast (and probably a vampire).  Haven't decided if we will fit in necromancers.  The necromancers you meet will all be hostile at this point.

Quote from: King_of_the_weasels
You mentioned 6 legged wolves as an example for evil region cursed animals, will this work as just 1 six legged wolf or will it become it's own creature that can breed and have working populations.  If they do have working populations does this mean that we could be getting greek style monsters such as a lion with a scorpion tail and bat like wings, aka a manticore.

I'm planning to do these like forgotten beasts, so they'd get their own definitions and be full breeding populations (or at least numerous if some of them don't breed) -- the idea is to slowly make the generators be able to do anything the raws have, while at the same time not turning the game into gray goop.  I think throwing a few of these into certain evil places will be fine, and maybe vermin, but for large commonplace beasts and civilized creatures it'll need to do some exposition (I've probably said more on this here or in DF Talk).  As soon as forgotten beasts support glued-together critters rather than the one-modified-animal type we have now, we'll have our mantichimgriffotaurs and stuff...  and hopefully it won't be too confusing.  Glued-together critters are harder because it has to support the materials/tissues/decorations from each base critter and get them placed correctly in the raw definition it draws up.

Quote from: Aqizzar
I know it's certainly a bug as currently intended, but given the range of possibilities in raised creatures, is there any traction to the idea of a necromancer raising intelligent motile undead, and then being deposed by his creations?  That's got a lot of literary history.

Yeah, the necromancers are very likely going to have some intelligent undead this time around so that they don't need to attack fortresses themselves and so that it isn't always just zombies.  This will then lead to any manner of situations once humans can stage coups and so on -- it should all follow automatically if the undead aren't bound in some way (and by default, it wouldn't think that they were).  It's unclear exactly when we are going to get those kinds of political situations in our regular civs -- the personality rewrite and succession stuff might be necessary and sufficient conditions, at least for the kind that don't involve lots of armies.

Quote from: Lord Zack
However I wonder if dungeons will occur in contexts other than just under cities?

More and more -- the external tombs are basically dungeons now.  The towers will probably get them this time (right now they are like zombie piñatas, but give them better maps is trivial with the tomb code).  We already have the labyrinths.  Hopefully before long it'll feel like there's a dungeon diving game sitting inside there, although it'll never really have quite the standard feeling of those in terms of experience + items + monster progression, so we'll have to make up for it in other ways.

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Quote from: Serrational
Will were-creatures be possibly undead?
Quote from: Chronas
Can undead get syndromes/curses?

The vamps can't be vamped and the weres can't be wered, but everything else looks technically legal now.  I'm not sure what situations can actually arise though.  Weres go nuts, so they don't have opportunities to become undead really.  I think a vamp could get wered during a were attack though, or if the vamp decides to become a monster slayer in world gen and screws up.  In world gen, I think that would make the vampire go nuts, in which case it would attack on the full moons, as a werebeast that also has the vampire properties I suppose.  And then it could attack your fortress.

However, this is because the werecurse is very lax about passing on right now.  It just needs a non-were who can learn.  If it also checked living status or something, it wouldn't be catching for vamps.  Right now an intelligent rock man could get wered.  Dunno what I want, but that last is a little or a lot weird.

Quote from: EvilTwin
With the ingestion of vampire blood carrying the curse, would food or water that got spattered with it curse my dwarves as well when they eat it?

Any ingestion syndrome is passed through the contaminants.  I haven't tested that example though.

Quote from: penguify
Can transformation-curses be performed on a creature that is already transformed? Ie, could a (modded) creature do the were-albatross-becoming-thing, and then turn into something else when it's were-form is hit with its own were-albatross-blood? (Form 1 -> Form 2 -> Form 3 -> etc) Can these changes be made permanent, so that when form 3 wears off, the creature remains as form 2?

Yeah, you'd have to mod it to get around the were-block (ie, use your own custom weres), but you can have a bunch of interactions sitting on you, with one permanent one and others that happen at various times.  I don't remember if conflicts in timing have the first or last one winning though, so if you have a temporary curse and a permanent curse, you might always still have the permanent form and have the temporary one ignored depending on which order you got them.

Quote from: IT000
(re: werewolf attacks) If the wiki is to be trusted that's ~2.4 minutes, is that really enough time to have some Fun?

Yeah, it's enough if the werewolf connects with your buddies during the first minute or so.  A minute of combat is a long time.

Quote from: Neoskel
Will curses like those for vampires and were-creatures be able to put in subtle 'tells' on the affected creature when it isn't transformed? Such as hairy palms for werewolves, fangs and pasty skin for vampires, etc.

Adding new tissue layers is about as hard as adding new body parts, so it'll have to wait for custom bodies to work.  Changing skin color is probably easier, but neither is supported at the moment.

Quote from: thvaz
Will villages get a rewrite too, or only towns?

I would like to get villages to work with this system, which will also improve the surroundings of the smaller towns by turning them into fields etc., but I might not feel like I have time.  That's the plan though, certainly by the village schedule release.

Quote from: jimi12
Will people who are cursed as werebeasts know that they have killed people when they turn back to normal form? Will they be remorseful or get extra depressed if they know that they killed a loved one while a werebeast?

There's a sort of missing piece here where they should be able to learn or infer something afterward, and there's nothing like that now.  It seems more typical (maybe?) for werewolves to not be aware of what they have done during the rampage itself, but I'm not sure what we'll have there.

Quote from: Knight Otu
Conquered sites used to keep their old civ's structures, around which the structures of the new civ would be build if they were different. Once the dwarf/goblin/elf sites are more fleshed out in the army arc, do you foresee that this will be the case again?

It was storing every structure back when it did that, because it could.  It can still do that to a great extent, and it would be ideal to have the history of the site represented by the buildings that are there.  I don't know when it'll happen.

Quote from: EmeraldWind
Currently, I noticed goblin helms tend to be branded with their civ's symbol. Will dwarven manufactured items and furniture have a way to identify which civ or entity the item was manufactured by. Or will there be no way to tell where the item came from for the time being?

This doesn't happen all the time, but it can already happen everywhere.  If the item doesn't have specific artwork on it, you can't tell where it is from right now, and people don't offer up that information, but when we have caravan people moving around, it should be more clear with their items, and the older traded items might get linked into however caravans are selling things on site if they haven't been moved around a lot.

Quote from: tfaal
Sometimes creatures will get knocked unconscious by blows to the head, independent of pain effects. This sometimes happens when it only bruises the muscle, other times it fails to happen when the skull is shattered. Can you tell us a bit about what factors determine this?

It's one of the oldest mechanics in the game, predating the first release.  It's probably just a rare chance as with stunning, some nausea and some winding.  It needs to be updated.

Quote from: eux0r
toady, do you think the next releases will also 'bloat'/include many unforeseen(but juicy!) extras or will you try to stick closer to the slim announcements on the schedule?

It would be foolish for me to say I'm going to stick with just what's on the schedule, because obviously I'm incapable of doing that.

Quote from: Neoskel
Can (modded) creatures have a material weakness to the material from another creature? Like a vampire that is weak to werewolf teeth/claws a la Van Helsing. Will natural attacks using parts made from that material get the bonus against that kind of creature? That is, will bite attacks from a creature with silver teeth get bonuses against silver weak were-creatures?

Are material weaknesses respected in worldgen?

Any material can be used for material weaknesses, although it does not recognize a material that comes from an old race that just has a syndrome on it (for instance, it does not know what a vampire bone is for the purposes of weakness, although it does understand how to alter materials for the purposes of giving them a syndrome like ingesting vamp blood).  Natural attacks will get the bonus (not if you are doing a wrestling joint lock or something -- those might still suffer any general resistance effect though).  Falling on the ground from a distance even grants the right bonus for the ground's material, although it won't recognize stuff like snow or blood if you fall on it.

World gen doesn't hand out specific equipment at this point, so I just skipped bothering with material weakness checks there.  As we get more information, especially for world gen heroes, but more generally, it'll come up.

Quote from: Neonivek
Toady, any plans for when are we going to be able to play the other non-(semi)megabeast sentiences in adventure mode? You added so many but so far only three are playable without modding, though not all of them may be what you envision as playable either

Nope, no timeline.  It was post-v1 in the old notes, but that was for monsters.  I'm not sure where the animal people fit in.  Once their civilizations are more fleshed out in even the most basic ways, it might be a natural addition.  Same with goblins and kobs (though kobs don't speak which is an impediment).

Quote from: tfaal
Will tortoise men tuck into their shells? That would be adorable.

Yeah, they use the animal person variation and that tag is inherited.  Armadillo men roll into balls as well.

Quote from: fivex
Will it be possible for animal men to become werecreatures?

Yeah, even a rock with a brain or a giant mother brain thing would at this point, as long as they can learn.

Quote from: Lord Shonus
Regarding the gem cuts mentioned in the devlog. How will this affect gem decorations?

Some of the decorations inherit the cut and it is displayed with the rest of information.  Some of them don't display the cut (I think images and rings, maybe).  I might fiddle with it later to retain the information as much as possible, to the extent that it makes sense anyway.

Quote from: monk12
Will trade embargoes be handled at some point in the Caravan Arc?

In those first releases?  Probably not, since the listed releases just get the basics of caravans moving around at all and the ability to make basic agreements with them.

Quote from: Thundercraft
Will curses eventually be developed in a way that Adventurers will be able to cure an intelligent creature cursed into an animal form with something as mundane and simple as a kiss or hug?

Similarly, will there be a chance for dwarves in Fortress Mode to encounter a talking cursed creature and the player be given the option to lead their dwarves to find a cure for it... with cured being either joining the fort or giving them some sort of reward?

Whatever happens in fairy tales is fair.  I have no idea what or when though.

Quote from: Sir Iryn
I noticed the keeps were still just large empty rooms, any plans on giving them more detail before the next release?

Probably not.  I think that fits in more with manors which is in the release list a little further down.

Quote from: Areyar
No goblins either...town at war or are goblins just to antisocial to be allowed into town?

I haven't seen goblins in towns for a bit, but they had been moving into them in small numbers before.  I'm not sure if it has been chance or if something is afoot.  The intended result is that there be a few goblins here and there in town.

Quote from: eux0r
toady, how many percent of the implemented content would you consider still being a place-holder for a more complex/different/somehow overhauled version? (im not expecting more than a subjective guess here)

Everything is subject to change, but some things aren't going to change again because I won't get to them again in preference for other things for the remainder of the project's life.  In general the game is not something I'm trying to hammer into finished form within a few years or anything like that.

Quote from: Jothki
How exactly are interactions being handled? Is there a single action that handles all types of interactions, or is there a seperate action for every possible interaction? Will adventurers be able to perform interactions if their species is capable of them?

There are a few types (resurrection and cleaning are distinguished, for example), but many parameters are shared and it's all the same thing overall.  Targets are separated from effects (effects take target tokens as parameters).  I haven't done an interaction interface for adv mode yet.  It clearly needs one but I don't want to promise it for this time because I'm not sure I will do it for this release.

Quote from: Dae
Toady, with the new "cleaning" effect in, will you update soap so it uses the new cleaning tag ? Also, does cleaning only remove layers of dirst/blood/whatever or does it have real medical properties, like prevening infections ? Will we be able to mod in adventurer reactions for cleaning wounds ?

If you're trying to understand the deep reason to my question, it would allow reactions of the type "rub yourself with said object/material".

I'm not eager to rewrite every job to use corresponding interactions even if it is ideal for everything to use the same framework.  The amount of invisible grime removed can be set by the effect, so it can have various effects on infection (right now, red panda licking leaves a small bit of grime behind).  Reactions are not currently linked to the interaction framework.  They will almost surely be hooked together at some point, when things like spell reagents etc. go in, and then we'll see how it plays out.  They might be merged completely later on, but it's too large a project to take on now.

Quote from: Untelligent
With the brief material breath attack rewrite, is the minor bug where liquid glob attacks shoot out solid globs instead fixed?

I haven't addressed many bugs that didn't stand directly in my way, but we'll see what happens when I finish up my animal tests.

Quote from: NSQuote
Are tall ceilings going to be the norm once multiple floored buildings make it in? Will it depend on the type of building (A kitchen using fires would have a high ceiling with chimneys for ventilation, the carpenter's shop might not)?

Also, will shop owners live on the floors above/below their shop, or will they have morning commute? Will they have workshops to create goods, or will the process be abstracted?

The shop owners all live in their shops now.  There are living spaces behind the shop room, or else they live in the shop room if it is the only one.  When multiple floored buildings go in, there won't necessarily be an extra level of air on top of the top floor, but the air is remaining on one story buildings for the reason I mentioned earlier (to stop universal rooftop movement).

When they begin producing goods, I'm not sure that there will be workshops or an abstracted process -- the most likely thing will be a more specific process using various tools/items/furniture, which'll also be what your adventurer uses.  The ability of the adventurer to do jobs will possibly go in with the AI being able to do it, or before.  That is far more likely than it going in after.

Quote from: Vattic
The cities are looking great so far but I do have one question. Are there any plans for, humans at least, to avoid building into the sides of hills? Right now some of the shots remind me of the Shire. In my family's first home there were huge steps cut into the hillside on which homes were built and walls to hold the dirt back but never have I seen a house surrounded on most sides by dirt like in the shots you posted. Perhaps some landscaping would solve the roof walking problem?

The house I'm sitting in now is built into a hill on two sides.  I'm not sure how common that sort of thing is, but it's the easiest way to do it in the game.  Widely terraforming the area will have some blockiness problems if I don't spend some time on it.  The way the road pops up and down sometimes though is pretty bad, and it causes some of the worst burrowings.  Not sure when I'll be handling that.

Quote from: Areyar
About this dead-popcap, if unlikely, I can imagine it could become a problem if someone wishes to run history for 10000 years or so.

When a site reaches this cap, how will the dead be culled?
Will it simply not add new corpses, or will it use the FIFO-system removing an old corpse for each new entry?
Will there be some sort of weighing? (Not realistic maybe, but heck)

I don't recall the order that is uses when it goes through the batches.  It still keeps track of all the dead, it's just that some of them aren't placed when it runs out of room.  Once it doesn't have to produce a whole corpse (like the skeletal walls under Paris), then it can do everything within reason.

Quote from: segfault
Will there be proper roofs (materials and triangular shape) or will they still be regular ol' flat floors?

It's the same material as the walls right now, and flat, like in the pictures.  Ideally, we'd have other things going on.

Quote from: Mechanoid
Since there will be food markets now, will adventurer hunger/thirst be re-enabled for this next version?

Hopefully.  How it is handled during travel is the main issue.  Since the time passes fairly quickly, it will probably be too annoying to force you to eat manually all the time (though there's an atmosphere argument for forcing you to do it depending on the exact frequency, as long as you don't have to zoom in to do it -- having an abstract camp on the travel screen would be cool, just a bit beyond the current sleeping).  So I need to add eating from the travel screen, either automatically and/or manually.
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Ves

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1325 on: July 04, 2011, 06:05:26 am »

>Falling on the ground from a distance even grants the right bonus for the ground's material

And lo, the players did begin working out a system for tossing goblins off of towers, trying to get them to land on the spots they're fatally allergic to.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1326 on: July 04, 2011, 07:11:34 am »

Thanks for answering our questions Toady.
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rangarkash

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1327 on: July 04, 2011, 07:22:47 am »

I cut out breeding vampires since I didn't want to deal with it for this release, but I know it's a popular thing to have mixed-breed vampire slayers and that sort of thing, so it'll probably happen at some point.

Sir, I'd be eternally grateful if you pushed the half-vampire vamp slayers to sometime post version 1.00

No, really.

It's not dorfy.

Please don't.

Sir.
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de5me7

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1328 on: July 04, 2011, 08:54:45 am »

"It'll have to be balanced out, whatever it is, or else the world gen has to stop some short period before a known date sensitive calamity is going to happen.  Then I think I mentioned before that heading toward an apocalypse is fine, and non-date sensitive ones are fine as well.  It just has to be fun.  If world gen ends up with too many rejects after doing several hundred years, that would be horrible.  If a post-apocalypse world is playable and not all that common, then that's okay as well.  It should be difficult to kill absolutely everybody without blowing up the world, and worlds with small isolated groups of humans clinging to life are cool, if a bit limited."


It would be cool if you could influence this in the world gen parameters. So we could have a number for curse probability or darkness or some general measure that you could increase or decrease to influence the spread and number of curses created in world gen. So if you wanted a world full of undead with few humans left you wouldnt need to gen dozens of worlds and get lucky, but rather tweek the parameter until you got a world where some humans just about survived. Even better would be to have parameters for different curses or curse catagories so you could customise your world to create loads of vampires, but not to many necromancers.
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monkeyfetus

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1329 on: July 04, 2011, 02:44:14 pm »

I cut out breeding vampires since I didn't want to deal with it for this release, but I know it's a popular thing to have mixed-breed vampire slayers and that sort of thing, so it'll probably happen at some point.

Sir, I'd be eternally grateful if you pushed the half-vampire vamp slayers to sometime post version 1.00

No, really.

It's not dorfy.

Please don't.

Sir.

IMO, Adventure mode shouldn't have to be dorfy. I think you can rest assured it won't happen for a long time, anyway.
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Greiger's is actually correct...  sadly enough.  The emotional circumstance processor is still turned on, with a randomly rolled up personality, but they can't express themselves or take control...  they can only cry.

Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1330 on: July 04, 2011, 03:22:11 pm »

Quote from: Mechanoid
Since there will be food markets now, will adventurer hunger/thirst be re-enabled for this next version?

Hopefully.  How it is handled during travel is the main issue.  Since the time passes fairly quickly, it will probably be too annoying to force you to eat manually all the time (though there's an atmosphere argument for forcing you to do it depending on the exact frequency, as long as you don't have to zoom in to do it -- having an abstract camp on the travel screen would be cool, just a bit beyond the current sleeping).  So I need to add eating from the travel screen, either automatically and/or manually.

The roguelike Caves of Qud does automatic eating/drinking from your inventory if you have it for overland travel that works pretty well. I think that an automatic system for Adventure Mode would work pretty well, provided that the game was smart enough to tell you that you are out of food/water. An automatic setting to refill waterskins when near fresh water might be nice, too. As would a basic auto-gather option. Maybe a percentage of time spent gathering setting so that you can balance food gathering with speed. So if you've got plenty of food or are in a hurry you can do no/minimal gathering and if you aren't in a hurry but don't want to spend too much time hunting you could just set a high gather-time and meander your way through the wilds.
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de5me7

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1331 on: July 04, 2011, 05:14:59 pm »

I second this. I like the survivalest game mechanics having to find food and water brings but having it stream lined so you dont have to focus on it all the time unless you want to is always a plus
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ffaerie

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1332 on: July 04, 2011, 05:41:24 pm »

Ooh, pretty things. It's the sad fps drops that get to me, though, and I am spiteful and bitter solely because of them.

What would be also nice is an expansion to the current mechanisms to make them more portable, I am thinking umbrellas here, maybe leather+mechanism+wood tents and such stuff for personal use. First things first, crafting while adventuring (and also ropes and other ways to improve mobility across z-levels and in general) should be pretty amazing.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 05:46:29 pm by ffaerie »
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Mechanoid

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1333 on: July 04, 2011, 05:59:32 pm »

[Eating/drinking enabled?]
Hopefully.
As long as i can die from thirst/starvation on a quest to kill a necromancer in his tower in The Desert of Thirst, that'll be simply awsome, even if i have to walk there manually (not travel mode) to do it. [edit - of course, assuming i don't die from infected blisters first, because the desert is EVUL and causes blisters]
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 06:01:10 pm by Mechanoid »
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darkflagrance

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Re: Future of the Fortress
« Reply #1334 on: July 04, 2011, 08:03:02 pm »

Quote from: Mechanoid
Since there will be food markets now, will adventurer hunger/thirst be re-enabled for this next version?

Hopefully.  How it is handled during travel is the main issue.  Since the time passes fairly quickly, it will probably be too annoying to force you to eat manually all the time (though there's an atmosphere argument for forcing you to do it depending on the exact frequency, as long as you don't have to zoom in to do it -- having an abstract camp on the travel screen would be cool, just a bit beyond the current sleeping).  So I need to add eating from the travel screen, either automatically and/or manually.

The roguelike Caves of Qud does automatic eating/drinking from your inventory if you have it for overland travel that works pretty well. I think that an automatic system for Adventure Mode would work pretty well, provided that the game was smart enough to tell you that you are out of food/water. An automatic setting to refill waterskins when near fresh water might be nice, too. As would a basic auto-gather option. Maybe a percentage of time spent gathering setting so that you can balance food gathering with speed. So if you've got plenty of food or are in a hurry you can do no/minimal gathering and if you aren't in a hurry but don't want to spend too much time hunting you could just set a high gather-time and meander your way through the wilds.

df 56.18.13 bug: Adventurers ignore tinned rations in their inventory when auto-eating and instead eat seeds, leather items, and severed heads taken as trophies, while auto-drinking from waterskins filled with blood and molten gold.
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