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Author Topic: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions  (Read 18170 times)

G-Flex

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2011, 12:49:27 am »

You're pointing out that if a conservative has glanced at you, you can have more encounters before "conservatives suspicious" comes up if you hit wait than if you walk around. I don't think this is even noticeable, let alone incredibly bizarre. Time is abstract in sitemode. What does wait mean? Wait for one unit of time? Wait for something notable to happen? There's no purpose to the former, so we make it the latter. You could say it's bizarre that the secret timer the player can't see doesn't tick more than once, but it's not like the player is going to notice the difference. If you saw the code and wondered about it, I could just say that standing in one place and looking innocuous while others walk by attracts less attention than moving around, and that would be the end of it.

I'd notice the difference because getting an encounter per turn is several times higher a rate than the encounter rate from walking around.

At any rate, yeah, you could justify it any number of ways, by saying that the "wait" key has you intentionally trying to get someone's attention, or something like what you said. I'm just saying that there are implications.

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Furthermore, why would this ever come up as an issue in real gameplay? Is there any reason at all in the game to wait pre-alarm besides wanting a group to show up?

I don't know, but I prefer making sure something makes logical and in-game sense before saying "eh, it probably won't matter in practice" because sometimes, well, turns out it does, potentially in a way you don't expect. You don't have to act all hostile just because someone dares to raise the question and make sure that the game mechanics are logically consistent. I don't know if this would affect gameplay significantly, but just in case it would, the implications of it are still worth at least considering so that we can know.

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If you're looking for encounters, is there a balance issue that makes it a problem for you to get extra encounters?

Maybe. There is at least the possibility of a balance issue coming up when you give the player the ability to instantaneously find an encounter without taking any time to do so (well, one turn instead of several) while waiting for the conservative alarm to be raised. I believe there have been times in LCS when I've wanted to find more encounters before the site goes bananas on me, or before the alarm gets raised to "massive response" or whatever it is. Whether or not it would cause a "problem" is unclear to me, but it would definitely change the sense of time by allowing the player to get several times more encounters before the alarm goes off.

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Is it even thematically strange that if you're looking for encounters, you can find more in a short amount of time than you could otherwise?

Of course not, but this thread seemed to me like it was acting as if "wait until you find an encounter" and "find an encounter right now" are the same mechanic, when in fact they're not. That distinction is what I'm trying to address.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 01:00:32 am by G-Flex »
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Kay12

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2011, 12:58:34 am »

LCS raids take place in a time vacuum. "Wait until encounter" and "Push button, receive encounter" would work identically. Implementing a time system and other more complex site mechanics (like the often mentioned Decker stuff) would allow a lot of interesting stuff. I'm still not in favor, at least yet. The current raid system is enough to put "Activism" in "Political Activism".
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G-Flex

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2011, 01:01:18 am »

LCS raids take place in a time vacuum. "Wait until encounter" and "Push button, receive encounter" would work identically.

Have you been paying attention? They wouldn't, because how long it takes from the site to go from "somewhat suspicious" to alarm status actually depends on a number of turns taken, not just encounter count.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Kay12

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2011, 01:28:39 am »

*rechecks code*

Yeah, there seems to be point in that. Scratch that.

EDIT: On the other hand, most LCS sites would be, by intuition, busy enough for the Liberals to "find" an encounter, if they wish, in a very short time. Having S key do so wouldn't really hurt, but it should have some other name for the purpose.

... S - Socialize
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 02:13:37 am by Kay12 »
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Elodie Hiras

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2011, 11:48:40 am »

Hello!

My game crashes for apparently no reason when I want to check my second squad when having my first one on screen. It also crashes when I try to check any squad from the review assets screen. And it also crashes when I try to wait a day. The only fix I can do is firing my only writer for the liberal guardian (who has 200 something juice and is the only member of the second squad).

Here is a save file:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kymkyk7u6crcebt

Can someone help me? Can someone dissolve the squads without anything crashing? Can someone figure out why the [heck] this [nice] bug happens?

Thank you!

Edit: I'm using wine if that helps. Following the crash, lots of numbers appear, and the window closes itself before I can read them.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2011, 12:59:11 pm by Elodie Hiras »
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Kay12

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2011, 11:51:03 am »

If someone here can, it must be Jon. I'm clueless when it comes to hacking savefiles...
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G-Flex

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2011, 01:59:31 pm »

EDIT: On the other hand, most LCS sites would be, by intuition, busy enough for the Liberals to "find" an encounter, if they wish, in a very short time. Having S key do so wouldn't really hurt, but it should have some other name for the purpose.

... S - Socialize

Yeah, and if there's no point in actually waiting, then there's little harm in that. I still think it ought to be ascertained that there are no serious balance repercussions, though, of being able to find encounters instantaneously in that sort of time-sensitive scenario. There probably isn't much of one, but I'd rather not assume; perhaps it would make it a tad easy to persuade/seduce new members in sensitive locations?


... Of course, you'd think that the crime squad would actually get more suspicion aimed at them if they're intentionally looking for people on the spot rather than bumbling into them.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2011, 02:29:04 pm »

Time-sensitive, yeah, right. If you want encounters, you're either looking for trouble, in which case you won't mind the alarm, or looking for recruits, which doesn't really get easier from its current state, just less tedious. Time-sensitivity matters for real only if doing stealth raiding, in which case one has no reason to wait/socialize.
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G-Flex

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2011, 02:37:23 pm »

or looking for recruits, which doesn't really get easier from its current state, just less tedious

Why wouldn't it get easier if you can collect more recruits per-visit? I mean, sure, you can always come back the next day, but it might still be relevant if you're getting, say, several times the number of potential recruits per visit.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Kay12

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2011, 03:09:55 pm »

A player can get any recruits they need in a very short window of time. Having to wait a day to get more recruits doesn't make the game any harder, it's just an annoyance having to wait a day and return. It's just like the non-despawning tables at the clubs, a feature I have enabled in my working copy. Even without it, I could still get five hangin' judges from the Club or Park each day. It would just require a lot more button mashing to get new encounters.
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G-Flex

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2011, 03:31:14 pm »

Fair enough; it's pretty rare for day-to-day time to really matter so much that you can't spare a day or two. If it cuts down the required recruitment time (in days) by a very significant factor, then it might be relevant, but otherwise, I guess it doesn't matter. It still seems counterintuitive to me that attracting attention on purpose on a turn isn't more suspicious than spending a turn just walking, though. :P
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Aqizzar

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2011, 07:49:10 pm »

I don't know if this counts as a bug, but I shut down the Fire Station, and was then immediately beset by by a fire-siege.  As in, between committing to leave for the day and starting the next day, the Firemen were closed and launched an attack.

I also think it's a little odd that you can sit out a siege with tanks, but not the Firemen.  It makes sense enough, since they just want to burn the place down, but the game doesn't exactly mention that.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2011, 11:57:44 pm »

I have strong preference against further complicating the interface of an already overcrowded screen, especially when the added function is just a shortcut, not a new feature.

This is a very relevant concern. However, if the same key functions differently during different parts of the raid, it should be communicated somehow. By the way, should S key be disconnected entirely when there's an encounter? There is no point at waiting during one, unless you want to grind your dodge, first aid and last rites.

I would just display a text message, perhaps replacing the one for a new encounter. Alternatively, don't communicate it, and make the effect subtle by having it only increase the spawn rate -- say, raise the chance of an encounter to 1/3 per turn when waiting. It's clear that wait is just stand around, but we make it much easier to recruit without waiting too long.

By the way, should S key be disconnected entirely when there's an encounter? There is no point at waiting during one, unless you want to grind your dodge, first aid and last rites.

Or perhaps you're trying to suicide your characters. I would lean toward leaving it there, and giving the player the freedom to do what they want. There's not much reason to do it, but I don't think we'd gain much by graying it out either.

I suggested earlier the possibility that waiting removes the encounter if you're pre-alarm. I actually think it would be much better if there's a 1/4 or 1/5 chance of this happening.

You don't have to act all hostile just because someone dares to raise the question and make sure that the game mechanics are logically consistent.

I apologize that I come across as hostile, or trying to discourage you from "daring to raise the question". My intent is to debate the point, not bludgeon you.

I take the civility of this forum very seriously. If I seem to be rude or insulting, please tell me. It's easier to identify it in others than myself.

Have you been paying attention? They wouldn't, because how long it takes from the site to go from "somewhat suspicious" to alarm status actually depends on a number of turns taken, not just encounter count.

This is only partially true. The site never goes into alarm based on a timer, it only goes into "conservatives suspicious" based on a timer, and that's if you've already had someone glance at you suspiciously. "Conservatives suspicious" means that your stealth actions are at sudden death; even the slightest suspicious will raise an alarm. Rushing extra encounters during this time will speed up the pace that you go to conservatives suspicious too, since additional suspicious glances from the additional encounters will rush the timer.

However, as I mentioned before, the length of this timer is quite insignificant from a gameplay standpoint. If people are glancing at you suspiciously, you'll get an alarm soon. If they aren't, you won't. How long the suspiciousness timer runs between the first and last glance isn't that big of a deal unless you're doing some kind of smash and dash site action that involves running into a secure area, doing something, and running out, with neither heavy weapons nor a disguise. This isn't relevant for recruiting, since you can stand at the entrance. Even with the smash and dash type actions, the timer could be pulled out entirely without affecting game balance greatly; it would just allow you to survive a couple extra suspicious glances before hell breaks loose.

Here is a save file:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kymkyk7u6crcebt

Can someone help me? Can someone dissolve the squads without anything crashing? Can someone figure out why the [heck] this [nice] bug happens?

Thank you!

It's very unlikely that I could fix the save file. I -might- be able to identify the bug, but despite my activity on the forum, I'm on hiatus from actual development of LCS. If another developer is interested in taking a look, my process for looking at broken saves is actually very simple, no black magic involved. I just run the game in debug mode in Visual Studio, load the save, and then crash it. Since I'm running through Visual Studio, I can do a stack trace. (Actually, I take it back, that does sound like black magic.)
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Aqizzar

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2011, 05:19:09 am »

Got a bug-
Quote
Debug assertion failed!

File: D:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 9.0\VC\include\vector
Line: 779

Expression: vector subscript out of range.

I can virtually guarantee that this was caused by two different squads trying to use one car, and the squad that came later was going to an outside-town location.  I'm sure this has been reported before, but just in case.

Beyond that though, I seem to be repeatedly running into a display bug with the vehicle selection.  If the program was improperly closed, the next time I run it without advancing through a daily activity, the vehicle selection will still works like normal, but the transportation note next to each squad member's name doesn't change.  Confused the Hell out of me the first time it happened.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 05:21:49 am by Aqizzar »
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Carlos Gustavos

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Re: Bugs, UI issues and Minor Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2011, 08:10:37 am »

I've fixed the interface bug, but I couldn't get two squads using the same vehicle to crash.

Edit: Elodie Hiras, I fixed your save: http://www.2shared.com/file/YYgIqs1J/savef.html
Your second squad was empty somehow.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 01:10:14 pm by Carlos Gustavos »
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