Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Military Training vs Designations  (Read 2127 times)

Psieye

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Military Training vs Designations
« on: May 24, 2011, 09:10:41 am »

Unsatisfied at the lack of hard numbers we've got for military training, I'm running experiments with Dwarf Therapist to see exactly how much EXP is being gained. During the process, I found a curious 'feature' of training: designations screw with training. Now we've known since the 40d days that things still happen (e.g. cats adopting owners) while you're designating areas to be mined out or chopped down (greatly accelerated by using a mouse). It's a very useful trick to get merchants to get organised quickly (remember the nuclear warthog days of early DF2010?) and get the liaison business out of the way in an instant. It also affects sleep/drink/eat needs apparently as well as the actual act of drinking from my observations - I've gotten dwarves to finish drinking instantly without any time steps passing and they've gotten thirsty/sleepy while I was designating too.

Now here's my main discovery: designations reduce the duration of training activities without real time passing. For "Individual Weapon Drill" and "Spar", this is very bad as those require real time to pass to gather EXP. They gain a minor amount and then they go into this weird "Individual Weapon Drill/Resting" job. However, demonstrations DO transfer EXP without real time passing.


I'll edit this post later as I gather more details and organise my data.

=========== DATA =============

Ok so I had 2 dwarves with 0 skill (7 peasant embark) and set them to train in a 2-man squad. There are 3 things soldiers with that order can do: drills, demonstrations and sparring. The practice of spamming designations to quickly finish off an activity will be referred to as "insta-accelerating". I only observed weapon skill, Fighter and Dodge - the other defensive skills do go up slowly like Dodge.

--- Weapon Drill

Ever since the early DF2010 days when this was the only training that worked properly, we've known it was horrendously slow at gathering EXP. I'd say this is the main reason why danger rooms were invented - they were essential back in the days as you had to avoid telling dwarves to actively train.

1 day of doing drills gives ~12 EXP in Fighter and their weapon skill. They may also get +3 EXP in Dodge.

Insta-accelerated, the weapon drill ends with 5 EXP in Fighter/Weapon learnt.

--- Sparring

Not every action you read in the sparring combat log yields EXP. It seems to be random whether a dwarf learns from a sparring move or not.

1 day of sparring thus has a varied EXP gain rate: I've seen +5 EXP and I've seen +100 in Weapon skill. Fighter goes up faster as any melee skill being trained also trains this skill (i.e. shield bashing, punching, etc): again, I've seen +20 and +200 on different days.
Dodging goes up much more slowly, typically some +6 EXP per day though some days it doesn't go up at all.

Insta-accelerated sparring yields: +8~40 Fighter, +1~30 Weapon, +0~5 Dodge with the distribution heavily weighted towards the lower end of those ranges.

--- Demonstrations

EXP is given out at set intervals in demonstrations. For the sake of argument, I shall refer to these intervals as "lessons".

For Teacher 0 & Student 0 soldiers, there are an average of 3.5 lessons per day and each lesson yields:

+10 Student, +15 Taught Skill for the student
+10 Teacher, +5 Taught Skill for the teacher

I've had a case where the teacher had less EXP to start the training session though he did have the same rank as the student.


When insta-accelerated, something odd happened: both teacher and student gained +150 Teacher, +150 Student, +300 Taught Skill.



Conclusion: overall, insta-accelerating is bad for military training. Sparring is where soldiers learn to wield their weapons properly and you want it to last as long as possible. Demonstrations could be exploited if it's in a hard-to-learn skill (any of the defensive skills).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:55:38 pm by Psieye »
Logged
Military Training EXP Analysis
Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

darkflagrance

  • Bay Watcher
  • Carry on, carry on
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training vs Designations
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 01:22:44 pm »

Cunning exploit: create a macro to designate and delete a digging designation somewhere over and over again. Pause the game while your dwarves are training and run this macro. No need for danger rooms  8)
Logged
...as if nothing really matters...
   
The Legend of Tholtig Cryptbrain: 8000 dead elves and a cyclops

Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod

Psieye

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training vs Designations
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 02:44:11 pm »

No there's the thing - you have to pay attention to which training activity they're doing and only designate-spam when they start a demonstration. I should clarify: being in "Individual Weapon Drill/Resting" nets NO EXP when insta-accelerated. It also makes your dwarves hungry/thirsty/drowsy for no gain whatsoever.

OP now edited. Next experiment: see how Student/Teacher skills affect training.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 03:23:00 pm by Psieye »
Logged
Military Training EXP Analysis
Congrats, Psieye. This is the first time I've seen a derailed thread get put back on the rails.

JmzLost

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training vs Designations
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 08:14:19 pm »

This is very interesting.  Thank you for doing !!science!! on military training.  I'm sure this will prove very useful to those of us who don't use danger rooms.

JMZ
Logged
Also, obviously, magma avalanches and tsunamis weren't exactly a contingency covered in the mission briefing.
I can assure you that Ardentdikes is not the first fortress to be flooded with magma. What's unusual is that we actually meant to flood it with magma.

nomad_delta

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training vs Designations
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 08:19:44 pm »

This sounds like a bug to me -- if Toady doesn't already know about it I'm sure he'd like to know.  Maybe check Mantis (the bug tracker) and report it there if no one already has?  I don't think Toady probably intends for stuff like this to happen during the pseudo-pause of designating.

Seems to me like designating really ought to either pause the game entirely, or not at all.  (I'd lean toward the former I guess, that'd make the most sense)

--nomad_delta
Logged

kotekzot

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training vs Designations
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 12:39:45 am »

Time advancing while the game is paused is a bug. Doubt it hasn't been reported yet, quite an obvious one.
Logged
Dwarf Fortress: Where violent death is a renewable resource
Bro, your like... thinking like a square man... its like, the WHOLE lamprey is just like, one big NECK dude, you know? its like hahahaha! dude protect the trees though, seriously. *inhale*... anyways... you like, want this dead black bear, bro?

greycat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Military Training vs Designations
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 10:43:01 am »

bug #1697 and interestingly, someone reported that designations cause military skill advancement on May 14th, 10 days before this thread was started.
Logged
Hell, if nobody's suffocated because of it, it hardly counts as a bug! -- StLeibowitz