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[Bohandas]

And yet, you've determined this using the same human faculties you determine to be responsible for humanity's terribleness in the first place. How ironic that humans can fail their own arbitrary standards, even as a species.

Lately, I've more and more been coming to regard human intelligence as in many ways analogous to the knowledge and power granted to Dr.Faustus in exchange for his eternal damnation.

[RedKing]

And yet, you've determined this using the same human faculties you determine to be responsible for humanity's terribleness in the first place. How ironic that humans can fail their own arbitrary standards, even as a species.

Lately, I've more and more been coming to regard human intelligence as in many ways analogous to the knowledge and power granted to Dr.Faustus in exchange for his eternal damnation.

Ever read any Vonnegut? I think you'd like him. I'm thinking particularly of Galapagos, where he goes on quite a tear about how the problem with humans is our "damn big brains".

[Askot Bokbondeler]

what got us here was the same drive every animal feels, it isnt the animal in us that will save us. animals constantly mistreat each other, and live terrible lives filled with stress and pain: those that don't suffer as much are the ones whose neurological anatomy is too simple, and if we're trying to reach "happiness" by simplifying our neurology, we might as well make ourselves inanimate objects, we've had the technology for that since ever.

[Bohandas]

what got us here was the same drive every animal feels, it isnt the animal in us that will save us. animals constantly mistreat each other, and live terrible lives filled with stress and pain: those that don't suffer as much are the ones whose neurological anatomy is too simple, and if we're trying to reach "happiness" by simplifying our neurology, we might as well make ourselves inanimate objects, we've had the technology for that since ever.

Yes it is, overpopulation, and all of the myriad problems derived from it, such as resource depletion, overcrowding (and its derived problems, such as increases in crime and traffic and a lack of enough jobs to go around), deforestation for land development, overfishing, etc. all these things are, through overpopulation, derived from responsible behavior in the form of medicine and law. To remove these problems but keep medicine and law and other forms of responsiblity would require removing the animal from ourselves, and then we might as well just be robots, and by that point what would even be the the point of preserving ourselves and our society? Why should robots continue running in the absence of the humans they were built to serve?

[kaijyuu]

 

We're already robots. Those instincts are programmed into us. The chemicals in our brains regulate function. All the animals in the world are programmed bots as well.

Unless you're a religious person that believes in something beyond that, I fail to see how there's a point to be made about being robots.

[Bohandas]

We're already robots. Those instincts are programmed into us. The chemicals in our brains regulate function. All the animals in the world are programmed bots as well.

Unless you're a religious person that believes in something beyond that, I fail to see how there's a point to be made about being robots.

Yes, but we're android like robots. The loss of the animal in ourselves would turn us into, to continue the robot analogy, something mopre like a mindless robotic arm in an assembly line.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

we don't need to "be robots", and losing our "animal" would turn us into something else, but going a bit further down the civilization road could take us to a good place. overpopulation is a temporary problem, most developed countries have declining populations, most undeveloped countries are developing, and i'm guessing technological advances will allow a minority of our descendants to provide for a majority of elderly. life will continue to be interesting, we'll find ways to fulfil and enjoy all of our animal drives with increasingly innocuous activities. i'm quite confident we're approaching a technological paradise, can't say how long it will take us, but i'm sure we'll get there

[kaijyuu]

We're already robots. Those instincts are programmed into us. The chemicals in our brains regulate function. All the animals in the world are programmed bots as well.

Unless you're a religious person that believes in something beyond that, I fail to see how there's a point to be made about being robots.

Yes, but we're android like robots. The loss of the animal in ourselves would turn us into, to continue the robot analogy, something mopre like a mindless robotic arm in an assembly line.

I'm just failing to see any difference. Android or arm, we're just following programmed lines of code.


I presume you're a romantic that believes our "humanity" is defined by emotion, not logic. That's fine! The reality is we'll never abandon emotion, though. Whenever people talk about throwing off animal instincts or whatever, they're not talking about desensitization; they're talking about self control. Denying instinct is a skill we possess, and this is not a bad thing. We won't deny every instinct; only the ones we CHOOSE to deny.

You're seeing a false dichotomy. It's not the elimination of the "animal within" or the "pure logic"; it's the control of both. That is the end goal that others here are promoting.

[G-Flex]

what got us here was the same drive every animal feels, it isnt the animal in us that will save us. animals constantly mistreat each other, and live terrible lives filled with stress and pain: those that don't suffer as much are the ones whose neurological anatomy is too simple, and if we're trying to reach "happiness" by simplifying our neurology, we might as well make ourselves inanimate objects, we've had the technology for that since ever.

Yes it is, overpopulation, and all of the myriad problems derived from it, such as resource depletion, overcrowding (and its derived problems, such as increases in crime and traffic and a lack of enough jobs to go around), deforestation for land development, overfishing, etc. all these things are, through overpopulation, derived from responsible behavior in the form of medicine and law. To remove these problems but keep medicine and law and other forms of responsiblity would require removing the animal from ourselves, and then we might as well just be robots, and by that point what would even be the the point of preserving ourselves and our society? Why should robots continue running in the absence of the humans they were built to serve?

You're overstating the problem, or at least the lack of solution to it. People live longer, sure, but we're also much better at not having kids. The birth rate in developed nations is actually getting very low. If you look up the figures, the problem mostly persists in the underdeveloped world.

To clarify: Population growth is worst where things like modern medicine, good rule of law, good nutrition, and relative lack of violence are not the case. In the areas of the world with the best medicine, civil society, rule of law, etc., population explosion is far less of a problem.

[Leafsnail]

We're already robots. Those instincts are programmed into us. The chemicals in our brains regulate function. All the animals in the world are programmed bots as well.

Unless you're a religious person that believes in something beyond that, I fail to see how there's a point to be made about being robots.

Haven't you go that backwards?  Programming implies that someone intentionally set you up to do things, so you'd need to have some kind of deterministic deistic outlook to think we're all robots (and I'm quite aware that most religious people don't have such a view).  We react in response to our environment and sometimes to our genes, yes, but that doesn't mean we're in any way programmed or like robots.

[Descan]

Hey, just because a species doesn't breed doesn't make them less... well, in our case, human. The only point of having kids is to continue the species, if we don't die, then the species is continued in either case, so there is no real point.

[Andir]

We're already robots. Those instincts are programmed into us. The chemicals in our brains regulate function. All the animals in the world are programmed bots as well.

Unless you're a religious person that believes in something beyond that, I fail to see how there's a point to be made about being robots.

Haven't you go that backwards?  Programming implies that someone intentionally set you up to do things, so you'd need to have some kind of deterministic deistic outlook to think we're all robots (and I'm quite aware that most religious people don't have such a view).  We react in response to our environment and sometimes to our genes, yes, but that doesn't mean we're in any way programmed or like robots.

Programming does not inherently mean that it's an intended effect by a third party.  I guess it's a gray area between side effect and intentional effect.

Machine Learning, for instance, concentrates on making a program "learn" on it's own and produce outcomes that may not have been explicitly programmed.  For instance, I could write a program to say "If (you see a black cat pass in front of you) { go another way; }" or "If (my experience or training tells me that following this path is intrinsically bad) { I should go another way; }"  Both methods are "programmed" but one is explicit and the other is implicit programming.

It all depends on your interpretation of how we make choices and I think we are closely bordering on a religious discussion.  I really don't want to go there again...

[Bohandas]

The only point of having kids is to continue the species

Ah yes, the group selection fallacy rears its ugly ugly head again. Breeding is to pass on your own genes; to hell with the species (except for however many are needed for your offspring to find mates)

[Leafsnail]

...Except that a lot of people in my species share my genes.  So if I help my species (especially if it's people related to me) I am to some extent helping to pass on my own genes.

[MonkeyHead]

Altruism seems to be an evolutionary advantage in some species...