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[Sowelu]

Ooh, I'm pretty excited.  No cash to pre-order now, but I know I'll come back to check on this once it's out.

[daffyflyer]

Well, there is a free demo of the engine designer incoming too, I'll be sure to drop in and advise when it happens

[daffyflyer]

We've been working hard and probably not sleeping enough!

Below is the results of this weekend's work on the engine designer, we're polishing and improving it in anticipation of releasing it as a demo soon (No firm release date yet, but we're fairly close)



Improvements Showcased Below are.

<BR><LI>Real Time Dyno Graphs
<BR><LI>Image Based Lighting
<BR><LI>Combustion Animation
<BR><LI>New Dyno Room Art

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7dGLd79Ckw

Don't forget you if you like what you see, you can preorder now from the link above or http://automationgame.com/buy

[Tilla]

I've been evangelizing Automation wherever I can online for a while. Still haven't preordered, think I'll have to wait till the demo is out - $25 is pretty pricey on the indie side so I gotta make sure it'll be right for me. Oddly I'm not a gearhead at all. I have the barest understanding of how engines work but that's about it. I don't even have a driver's license. But this seems like a cool simulation and the tycoon part makes for an interesting way to learn the ropes.

[Deadmeat1471]

Oh this looks awesome! It reminds me of all those classic car company management things but with a more realistic construction. I will definitely buy this if it keeps on looking this good!

[dennislp3]

I've been evangelizing Automation wherever I can online for a while. Still haven't preordered, think I'll have to wait till the demo is out - $25 is pretty pricey on the indie side so I gotta make sure it'll be right for me. Oddly I'm not a gearhead at all. I have the barest understanding of how engines work but that's about it. I don't even have a driver's license. But this seems like a cool simulation and the tycoon part makes for an interesting way to learn the ropes.

I agree on the price point being high...if it is going to be that way its fine but...mayhap try a payment model like unreal world?

that model has it so you can pay for a price that fits each persons budget and level of interest in the game....$5 for the current version (say its 0.1.1) only, like $10 for the current major version (0.1.x) and $25/$35 for the full version as intended.

I know I cant (and wont) drop $25 (and especially $35) on a game like this in its current state...not because I dont have faith in the people making it but I dont know how the end product will compare to now...and I dont exactly have that kinda money to throw around in the first place.

[RaySmuckles]

$25 is too high for an impulse buy. Most people I knew that bought Minecraft early (myself included) bought it because it was cheap and at impulse buy level. If it didn't pan out, no big deal. Maybe it's different for this game since it's a much more specific niche than games like Minecraft or Terraria, so you have a smaller target audience.

I'm no businessman, and it looks fascinating... but unfortunately I won't be jumping on this early. Looking forward to watching progress though!

[Mullet Master]

I want to start this post simply by saying, I like the idea for the game. The engine/body models are nice and clean so far(all this is from videos I saw on Youtube a few days ago). It looks like there is a mostly planned and functional GUI in place.

But, as with anything ambitious, I am really, really skeptical that this project can be completed. It is good the developers have raised some money so far, but asking 5000 people to pre-order for $25 is a bit much.

There is very little motivation for potential players to do this. If the game becomes vaporware, the players lose the $25. If the game is released on time, then the players save at most $10 - the real market price of this game will never be above $35 considering many  million+ dollar budget games are in that price range after 4 months. 

The reason why the beta worked so well for Minecraft et. al is those games could be played multiplayer in Beta, and had a pretty much non-stop stream of updates all the way up until real release date. So the player base kept self-marketing to friends, etc. and there was a constant influx of development money.

But, I want add a little bit of optimism to this post because after rereading it, I seem a little bit harsh.The PC game market is huge. There are alot of sim fans out there, and there may be very well enough to fund development of this game. After all, there are seemingly hundreds if not thousands of people spending huge amounts of money on obscure, expensive games like Railworks , Take On Helicopters, etc.

[RaySmuckles]

There is very little motivation for potential players to do this. If the game becomes vaporware, the players lose the $25. If the game is released on time, then the players save at most $10 - the real market price of this game will never be above $35 considering many  million+ dollar budget games are in that price range after 4 months.

This is a great point as well. AAA games often go on sale within a few months, dropping the price from ~$50-$60 to as low as $25. (The ones that aren't a huge financial success often drop to $40 MSRP or less within a month or two, and more after that!) So to ask for that up front for an unreleased indie game is hard to swallow for most people, I would think. Look at other popular indie games - SPAZ, for example, is a solid and polished indie game that went on sale for $5 relatively shortly after release, and $2.50 a month later. That's the sale price people expect from a small indie game nowadays.

Granted, we could be completely wrong... there could be a tycoon/car mechanic gamer niche that's ready to shell out a decent bit already.

But I really think that something like a scaled pricing ($10 now, $15 as it progresses, and up towards the full price on release) or a Kickstarter setup ($10-15 = beta+preorder, with extra bonuses if you donate more) would be better for an indie game. /shrug

[daffyflyer]

Interesting thoughts from you all, I'll reveal a bit of the thought process behind our pricing.


I don't think its a game with as broader appeal as things like Minecraft, its targeted to a specific enthusiast market, in the same way train simulators often are, and as such I'm not sure we will ever get amazingly huge volumes of sales, so selling at $10 or less is unlikely to cover our costs effectively.

We do in fact offer content along the way, in that there will be a demo of each aspect of the game released (for example the engine designer first) and if you've preordered, you'll get extra content, to the point that near the end of the dev cycle you'll for example be able to build any car or engine you like, but not have the business side of the game (as we're perhaps still finishing it)


I totally understand that the price point could be off-putting as an impulse purchase, especially considering we don't have anything playable right now, and frankly I don't begrudge anyone who is not willing to preorder.

 If it is off putting, my best advice would be to wait until we've released some/more of the demos, if you like it, then put down the money, if not then oh well.

Having said that, we have a curiously hardcore fanbase, and they seem convinced that its fairly priced, and their desire to support a project that is fairly unique in the market and fulfulls what they want in a game, means that price is not a big issue and we've been fairly successful given our limited marketing and no playable product as yet - (to the point that some of the REALLY keen fans have even preordered multiple times, just because they want to support what we're doing)



Also @RaySmuckles - the $5 - $2.50 price point is a lot different to what we're working on - In terms of what the game will be like, it should compare fairly well to midranged boxed titles ($40) and much larger in scope, complexity, replayability and graphical variety and detail. Closer to a AAA game than the kind of more casual/arcade like titles you're thinking of

[Sowelu]

Spoiler: The price point (click to show/hide)

I have to chime in alongside what others said here.  Mind you I haven't seen the demo, but $10-$15 is pretty much what I pay for games.  I buy a LOT of stuff at that price; it's the level at which I'm willing to take a risk on something that isn't a critically acclaimed, overwhelmingly popular masterpiece.  A demo is very nice, but it doesn't say a darn thing about the overall length that I'll enjoy the game for.  Is it exciting for two hours, then quickly boring?  Does the final version have less content than expected?  For $10-$15, I'll happily take that risk, even without a demo.  $25 and up is only for games that have clearly-demonstrated fun value (and a pre-order is right out).  The only games I can remember paying more than twenty bucks for in the last several years are the Left 4 Dead games, Civ 4 and 5, and uh...Orange Box.  On the other hand, my Steam games list is absolutely full of ten dollar games that I've spent maybe a few hours on, and I keep happily buying them.

$10-15 bucks, I think, is a really key value here:  It's the price (per person) of a night out.  Maybe it's dinner at a decent Thai place.  Maybe it's a trip to a movie theater and a box of Junior Mints.  Maybe it's a trip to the zoo.  Either way, if you sit there thinking "I want something fun to do for a couple hours", that's the price range.  Just about any video game is fun for a couple hours, so that's my price point.  It's not that I don't trust your game, it's just that...well, I don't trust your game.  I don't have word-of-mouth from RL friends.  I haven't sat at someone else's keyboard and fussed around in it for a couple hours.  I haven't played the prequel.  All I can do is say, "This game looks interesting.  I need something interesting.  It's within my entertainment budget for tonight.  I'm going to buy it now."  It doesn't need to be mind-blowingly amazing, and it'll get word-of-mouth just fine as a plain old fun game.

I can see the appeal of marketing to a small, hardcore fanbase--it does let you make a more focused product and gives you reliable customers, and it also lets you cut corners because hardcore fans are more forgiving--but I don't see any reason why this particular game wouldn't appeal to a wider fanbase.  Hopefully this would be good for everyone who likes design+simulation games, not just people who are obsessed with cars.  Most of the people who bought Railroad Tycoon were fans of simulation games, not railfans or trainspotters.  Maybe that could apply here, too?

I'm just worried that you would never find out, because while it's an AAA game within its tiny tiny niche, it's lower in comparison within the larger sim genre... still good enough to draw a large audience, but not at the same price.  I mean, I'd rather take the risk of appealing to just 10% of a million sim fans, than to stick with 100% of ten thousand car-sim fans, even if I had to pull a lower asking price.  I dunno.  I guess it depends on the way you publish it too, and after getting curious on the preorder page, I do have to take vocal issue with that.

Spoiler: What's wrong with the ordering process (click to show/hide)

Dude, seriously, this is the process to preorder your game:
- Let's click the big text on the front page that says 'preorder'!
- Okay, where do I put my money?  Wait, I need to be registered?
- ...on the forums?  Okay, let me make a username, a password...
- I have to answer a secret question by finding and going to the 'Team' page? Are you SHITTING me?
- Wait for an email to arrive...
- Click the activation link, back to the front page, back to the preorder page...
- Jesus, activating my account didn't even take me through a login page.  I need to log in.
- WHERE IS THE LOGIN BUTTON
- BACK to the forums, log in, BACK to the main page, click to the preorder page...
- And, finally, there's the paypal button.

You know why you only have super hardcore niche market fans buying your game?  THIS IS WHY!!  The ordering process should be "Click pre-order button.  Click paypal button.  Receive bacon."  Maybe it'll take you some extra time to handle the pre-orders manually through email, but pardon my language, this is fucking ridiculous.  Even at thirty bucks, impulse shoppers are your friend.  I had to jump through no fewer than ten hoops to even find a paypal button.  Shit, if I wanted to buy a known-good game on Steam and it made me jump through that many hoops, I'd get bored and walk away before I paid any money.

Because at the end of the day, here's another super-serious heads up for you about your price point: The harder it is to own your game, the lower the price it is worth.  Think of it as an "inconvenience anti-fee".  When I get something on Steam, I find the page, I click buy, and then I know I can download it forever from anywhere.  It's easy and it's trustworthy.  If you have a bad ordering system, your game starts looking like a worse deal as I muddle through the process.  If I don't feel like I can safely download your game to any of my computers, anywhere, even if my hard drive dies (like I can with Steam), your game starts looking like a worse deal too.

And... at this point, I'm just coming across as bitching in a really negative way.  It's not intended that way.  But since I don't think I've seen any previous games from your studio, and I don't see anyone on your team page who's listed as having anything even remotely to do with business, I want to make sure I give you the full reasoning behind my thoughts on pricing.  And if you don't think $10 will cover your costs on pricing... well, it will if you sell three times as many!

Go look up Left 4 Dead's price point and sales volume.  They halved the price, and sales went up 3000%.  That's 3000%, as in 30 times, and that's not a typo.

Okay, here's a couple questions for you.  And they may be awkward to answer, but here goes anyway:

1) What games should I be comparing this against?  Right now I'm imagining it as part Spacechem, part Kerbal Space Program, and part...uh, something with money.  How in-depth is it, compared to those?  Is that interpretation completely, way off?  What would you compare the financial side against?

2) Where does the replay value come from?  Okay, I'm designing a car.  I'm good at designing things.  Compulsive, even.  What will keep it challenging...and, more importantly, what will make me play with the engine designer more than a few times?  Yeah it's fun, that's the whole point, but I'm (perhaps falsely) thinking of an engine in the vague, rough, inaccurate terms of a single stage of SpaceChem.  Okay, so I've designed a few ideal engines for different classes of car, or maybe different stages of the game (based on expense).  Now what?  SpaceChem's replay value comes from "Shit that's a lot of stages, like a whole lot, and they're really hard to optimize", and Kerbal...well, I don't see where Kerbal is going to have any long-term replay value at all.  In Automation, once I've hashed out the game's fundamental design principles, what keeps me from re-using my designs every single game so that replaying it is trivial?

[dennislp3]

I would just recommended even a $5 lower price.

it may seem silly but its marketing 101 and its why you see things for $19.99 instead of $20. The look of the price is important.

When I think $20 the first thing that goes through my head as an average Joe is "I can pull a $20 bill out of my pocket...no prob...its just one bill"

When I see $25 I think "Well I gotta pull a $20 out which hurts enough...but I also have to fish around for more"

instead of selling 5000 you would have to sell 6250. But I bet that $5 and the slightly more automated "its only $20" thought process will get you more than 1000 sales all on its lonesome.

[daffyflyer]

I'd say the fact that we have a $25 dollar normal edition and a $35 special edition and that about 95% of the preorders are of the more expensive edition implies that pricing is not a huge issue for us.

We're comparing it against things like Transport Tycoon, Railworks, Cities in Motion, Roller Coaster Tycoon etc. But its really a product with no games that similar to it, except older games like "Detroit"

Re: Replay value, I'm not quite sure you understand the full scope of the completed game. Its a Business game, yes you'll be designing cars and engines, but where the replayability comes from is taking different strategies, for example you might play one game trying to be a huge boring company like Toyota, play another one trying to be a supercar manufacturer like Ferrari etc., Each of these play styles will have unique challenges as to how to succeed, and if you wanted a real challenge, you could try and be a successful company starting in Africa or something along those lines.

Multiplayer will add a lot to its replay value too, we plan for up to 16 player multiplayer, with options for multiple players to manage the one company, or different companies, or a mix of both. Whilst the single player will be fun, I can see the Multiplayer providing a lot of replay value and long term enjoyment.


All in all, I don't think we have an issue with price, It might turn some casual buyers off, but I think the difference that it would make is just not that huge, I mean if people were actually bothered by price, we'd see a LOT of extra sales of the $25 edition, but what we see is the exact opposite.

Also, you have to consider that we're making something a lot more complex and polished than most small and casual indie games, so its not going to get a casual game kind of price. Its frustrating that the perception is that titles made by a small team/Indie team MUST be priced low.


Re: Preorder System - Agree with you 100%, it was HORRIBLE, it was the best we could do at the time, but we've put more work into it since then, and now you just click on the paypal button, pay and then get emailed a key for later activation, MUCH simpler than before

[Sergius]

There was another, I think called Motor City or something, I think it was german and kinda lime detroit but with some base building.

Anyway posting to follow, until I get home to a real computer instead of stupid iPhone.

[Sowelu]

Ah, never meant to imply that indie games need to be cheaper--just unproven companies, no offense.  But hey, that's what reviews are for.  I gave my price for 'sight unseen' mostly, because I only ever really pay more when it's like...oh hey Valve made another FPS, they're good for it.  We'll see!  I do look forward to seeing what happens with this.

What style is multiplayer...Realtime, PBEM?  How long does a game take?  I didn't like Civ 5 because it had no PBEM and you really had to commit to /everything/ in one sitting.

Glad to see that ordering isn't a trainwreck now...